Advice on disclipline measures
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Advice on disclipline measures
My four year old these days will just not listen to me, my ds or his grandparents, who are watching him part time while we work. If he doesn't get his way, he immediately starts throwing a tantrum....and won't do what we ask him to do... definitely testing us. I try to set boundaries, limits and be consistent (but not always successful) and try to give him as many choices as possible (L&L approach) but it doesn't appear to be working very well. Example, when we take him swimming and it's time to go home, I give him a 15 min warning but then when it's time to go, he screams "noooo" and starts crying etc. What do I do??? Should I literally drag him out of there??? Last night, he refused he brush his teeth.... whining... "I hate brushing my teeth.."" and sat there with a frown on his face for 10 minutes..... Please I need help!!! Advice??
I don't know why there is so much talk about "terrible 2's". It's age four that's the tough one!
When you offer choices, make it two choices, either of which will make you perfectly happy. If he doesn't choose within ten seconds, choose for him.
Yes, carry him out kicking and screaming. And next time he wants to go tell him, "Oh honey, this is so sad. I would love to take you, but I won't risk you not listening like last time." He'll beg and plead, but don't cave. Or you could hire a babysitter and go without him telling him you want to go and have an enjoyable time and that just isn't possible when he whines and doesn't listen. (Just watch your tone on that one. You have to sound very sympathetic, not accusatory).
You won't have to do that more than once. He WILL remember. They always do.  It will be harder on you than on him, but it will be worth it in the end.
As for brushing teeth, go back to simple choices. "Would you like to brush your teeth before your book or after?" or "Would you like to brush your teeth or have me do it?" or "Would you like to use this toothpaste or that toothpaste?" Don't start with the order, "Go brush your teeth". He will immediately resist you. Start right away by giving him these kinds of choices so that he feels he is in control.
I have a six year old who hates to wear his jacket. I used to battle him to get him to put it on. Eventually I learned to change my approach. Now I just ask him, "Are you going to wear your jacket or carry it?" I am satisfied because he has it if he gets cold yet he feels like he has some control of the situation. The very first time I switched to that question he said, "I'll carry it." And he picked it up and walked out the door. I was amazed how easy it was.
Just be consistent with whatever you do. Eventually he will get it. He's being a normal four year old. They all come around...someday.
How do you feel about denying them any tv or computer the next day as a punishment?
Ditto Melanie. I've brought my DD out of places kicking and screaming in the past. It has only happened a handful of times. Now all she usually needs is a reminder. She also went through a phase when she refused to brush her teeth. Giving her choices wasn't effective. We finally said, "No teeth brushing, no bed time story." Bed time story is a favorite activity for her. We had to follow through a few times so she knew we meant business. (NEVER make idle threats - ie: ones you're not willing to go through with.) Now if she's uncooperative when it comes to brushing her teeth we say casually, "Oh well, no bed time story tonight." She changes her tune.
Yep.. that is exactly the approach I take.. but the second I say there will be no bedtime story then, he immediately starts throwing a tantrum. He cries loudly slumping on the bathroom floor, and I end up having to literally drag him to bed (since he has to wake up in early for preschool). He continues his crying until he's worn out and falls asleep quickly thereafter. I feel awful and sad that he/we have to end the day this way. I feel like crying. Am I handling the situation right? I feel like I'm failing at being a good mom... I always thought I had incredible patience but lately, I feel like I'm at my wits end.... and he knows it. Oh well, I think I just needed to vent.....thanks for allowing me too. Hopefully things will get better. Thanks Melanie and Trina. You two always have great advice.
You've gotten good advice. I will add that each time you "give in" and let him have his way only encourages him to repeat the behavior.
Children definitely try one's patience. Frustration - and guilt - are normal parts of parenting. That is not as unsympathetic as it may sound. Believe me, I am very, very sympathetic. It's just having BTDT, I can sort of chuckle in retrospect, though when it was happening I was just as frustrated and unhappy and baffled as you are.
I do suggest a couple of things. Check out your tone of voice - when you offer choices or give instructions or say "if you don't X, Y will happen", be sure your voice is calm, firm and friendly - just "matter of fact". Be sure you aren't sounding tentative and try not to let your frustration show through.
And, I will echo what is said above - you must be consistent. It is so frustrating to have to say the same things over and over (I sometimes wished for a tape player with loops for what I wanted to say so I didn't have to keep saying it), and it is frustrating to have the same behavior come up again, but eventually the message gets through.
At his age, consequences need to be fairly immediately. I am not sure that next day denial of privileges will work, though it will in a year or two, but it is certainly worth trying. Of course, if you do deny TV or computer the next day, you will probably have a whole day of whining and crying, and you need to think about (a) is it worth it and (b) what will you do about that behavior.
Three, I would suggest consequences for these tantrums. With my sons, all they had in their bedrooms was furniture, clothes and books. The TV and entertainment stuff was in the living room. So when a tantrum occurred (and fortunately they were rare), the son went to his room, even if I had to carry him, and the rule was that you don't come out until either you are willing to behave nicely or the next meal. And this was in addition to the consequence for whatever the child did or refused to do.
I do remember some tantrums, and I definitely remember saying OK, we are leaving (this place) because you are not behaving properly.
I don't remember many tantrums, and in discussions with my youngest son, who is now living with me, his explanation is that they knew it wouldn't work so why bother. But not every child will react that way.
Finally, this too shall pass. And the firmer and more consistent you are, the easier the next phases will be because your son will know that you do what you promise/threaten to do and that testing you produces nothing but consequences. They do eventually link cause and effect - it just takes time.
And then the fun of having them try out stuff they learned from their friends ... you stand there and wonder "where did that come from".
It is really hard work to raise children with discipline and firmness and consistency, and when they are young it often seems easier to just give in. But the alternative is to have a badly spoiled child who doesn't know how to behave and gets in whole lots of trouble, and down the road you definitely pay for it (and your child pays for it) if you don't work at it now. I have seen this with friends' children over and over.
I was known as a very restrictive and firm parent (mean mommy is what my sons and their friends called me). But each of my sons, as an adult, has come back and thanked me for being firm and consistent and demanding good behavior from them. Their comments are along the lines of - I kept them out of trouble - and they know how to behave appropriately and their friends don't, and they appreciate knowing how to behave appropriately. And, as adults they appreciated how much work it was and how hard it was to do as I did with them. So there is a payoff - it just won't come for many years.
Great post, Ginny.
Joyce, my DD throws those tantrums, too. VERY frustrating. Sometimes I have to walk away from the situation to compose myself so I don't blow up at her. I used to ignore these outbursts but DD is strong willed and persistant. She will continue and escalate until she gets attention, even if it's negative. Now I say, as calmly as I can muster, "I refuse to acknowledge this unacceptable behavior. I'll be happy to help you when you're sweet." Then I walk away and ignore the tantrum. After doing this several times she finally knows I really won't acknowledge that behavior. Now, she will usually snap out of it and run over to hug me. Not always but more often than not. She is my challenging child and really tries my patience. Being firm and coming down hard on her only fuels her fire. DH has yet to realize this. I'm trying to incorporate more L&L approaches.
You've gotten great advice. I just wnat to reiterate the "be firm" message. If you give in after you've said a "have to", you've just lost him- big time. He's learned that you don't really mean it. My son is EXTREMELY difficult and the be firm, consistent, logical consequences, take them home screaming and kicking is the only reason people say to me that he is a loveable kid despite all his behavioral issues. FYI- my son's tantrums- starting at age 18 mo have lasted 2 1/2 hours at times....
You have gotten lots of good advice here. If it were my DD, I would not even bother saying "no bedtime story." (Especially if he is doing this every night.)If he started to throw a tantrum I would just give the "What a bummer!" Or "Aggh, man, looks like some bedroom time!" or "Uh-oh, this is sad!" or "We'll talk when you are ready to be sweet" and while you are saying this, pick him up and bring him to his room. (Whatever you say, just act like it's not phasing you at all!)Don't talk while doing this. Let your actions do the talking. Close the door and don't talk through the door. I find the longer my DD is in her room, the better behaved she is when she comes out. Believe me, he'll notice that there is no bedtime story!
Just be very careful and don't threaten with the bedtime story. Sometimes I find myself doing this. "I mean it! If you can't behave, no bedtime story! Looks like no bedtime story. Don't you want to read a story? I mean it!" Try to do less talking. Believe me, sometimes my DH and I get caught up in doing this. I say to DH "Less talking" and I encourage him to say the same to me.
My DD sometimes doesn't want to brush her teeth too. I say "Do you want to brush your teeth or do you want Mommy to brush them for you?" If she is throwing a fit, I bring her to her room with a "Bummer!" or whatever. When she calms down I will say "Hi, are you ready to brush your teeth?" Then, she usually will say "Yes. I'm sweet! I want to brush my teeth!"
What has also worked wonders on my DD with tantrums. She doesn't throw herself on the floor anymore after I've been using L&L. I say "Oh good! That is a really good fit! Try kicking harder! Good! Maybe cry really, really loud now!" She always says "NO! I not!" and stops. LOL!
Good luck! It's not easy. Try your best just to have fun with it. I always look forward to carrying my DD to her room. I know that when she comes out, she'll be much better! I also find that if I just pick her up right away, that I am not wearing myself out as much. Which, we all know how much kids can wear you out!
My best advice is to be calm and swift with whatever you do. Good luck! I hope it gets better soon!
Thanks, Eve. Great advice. When my ds throw a major fit, rolling around the floor, screaming, the whole 9 yards, my first inclination is to take him to his room. The only problem is he is nearly 50 lbs and I'm 110 lbs. I can't pick him up. I have to literally use all my might to drag him. So I just leave him where he is and move to another room. He starts banging, kicking and throwing things around. I immediately to to him with the sternest look I can muster and order him not to do what he is doing... most of the time he doesn't listen. Should I just ignore him even with all the banging? Sorry for my continual questions!!
Definitely do not respond to him with all the banging. If he doesn't get a reaction from you he will quickly learn it's not worth doing. Don't let him hurt your eyes and ears by having that fit in front of you. Walk away and when he is sweet talk to him.
A friend of mine who was new to L & L called me one night. Her six year old was having a meltdown. The little girl asked her mom to play a board game and the mom responded she would love to as soon as she cleared a spot for them to play on her bedroom floor. This set the little girl off. She through a huge temper tantrum. The mom called me for advice and I could hear her daughter raging in the background. The mom did not respond to it at all. Eventually, after the room had been torn apart, the little girl came out for a hug. Her mom gave her a huge hug and kiss and tucked her in to bed. The next morning the daughter got up, and with the help of her brother (neither of whom had been asked to do this, but simply went in and started working) cleaned up her room, including trying to rehang stuff she knocked off the wall.
I talked to the mom the next day and she was so happy. She said she normally would have spent that morning yelling at her daughter to get the mess cleaned up and they all would have started off the day angry. That morning the room was clean and everyone had a smile. The mom never let her anger rise. She never tried to regain control of a situation she knew she couldn't possibly control. Her daughter was going to have a tantrum whether the mom was calm or angry.
Her daughter has never pulled anything like that again. It simply didn't work.
Ditto-don't respond. The other night, DD was whiney, and I had been looking over one of my L&L books and it refreshed my memory to try saying "What's that I hear? There must be a little buggy in my ear." Sounds silly, but I kept rubbing my ear and saying that everytime my DD whined. She finally said "Oh, can I see?" LOL! I said "Sure!" She looked in my ear and said "Oh, it's just a ladybug, Mom!" She stopped whining...
You are on the right track to leave the room too! L&L is an attitude. It's about finding the phrases that work for you. It's showing them that Mom isn't going to listen to the temper tantrum. If my DD follows me when she is throwing a fit, I just ignore her and talk to myself outloud. "Hmmm, what should I have for lunch?" Just as happy as can be. DD will say "Oh, I want some pickles." She will realize that I am not going to listen and she'll stop.
Keep up with it, you'll be so pleased! Post any questions! I know I am constantly talking stuff through with Melanie!
How would you handle this situation L&L style?
My daughter, who is 10 never wears dresses but has showed an interest in skirts,lately. On Sunday, we had a mother/daughter tea planned that she had prepared for(baking,making sandwiches,etc)at a girlfriends house on Saturday. So Sunday afternoon comes and I ask her to pick out some nice clothes to wear for the function.I suggest a skirt and nice top. Time goes on and she comes down in jeans and a shirt, saying that it is to cold and rainy for a skirt. UUGGHH Arguing with her is pointless, I get mad and angry, she gets moody etc..So should I have said if you don't dress up I am not taking you? Just curious....
Really good question, Stori.
First, I would try my darndest not to say "You march right up those stairs and CHANGE!" LOL! That would just insure that she will say "No!" LOL!
They suggest going "brain dead" sometimes and just repeating things. So, when your DD came down the stairs say "Oh, that's an interesting choice of attire. I thought we agreed on a skirt?" Don't let her get a rise out of you. Then, I would say "Ok, we can get going as soon as you get your skirt on like we agreed." I would just keep repeating it over and over no matter what she says. Maybe with a "I love you too much to argue honey."
Or "I'm leaving in 10 minutes. I'll be glad to take you when you are dressed appropriately." Then, you go without her. You might say "I left the phone # on the fridge. Maybe you can find some alternate transportation." Have fun with it. Put everything in her hands. If you go back home to pick her up, charge her for gas money. I know Melanie has charged her boys if they miss the bus.
Stori, the hardest part of this, is that sometimes she might have to miss a tea to get your point across.
I also don't have any experience with older kids. I'm sure Melanie can give you some advice here. The biggest thing would be not to freak out about it or start yelling and getting upset. She will just resist.
Well,
I blew it!! LOL
I got upset and freaked out..LOL(You know its bad when hubby comes up stairs and says, Geesh I can never leave you two alone for more than 10 minutes..lol)
I told her that we could compromise on something dressier. It didn't have to be a skirt but atleast some nice shoes and a top. So she ended up looking cute and even going into my closet to pick out a sweater jacket! I threatened not to take her but I knew all the moms expected us to be there! When we got there I told the moms how I got upset, and Lotte started to cry and she is lucky to have made it in one piece..LOL(something my mom would have said) They all chaulk it up to the age. Hormones are running and its just a really hard age. So I do know I am not alone! LOL
LOL, Stori. We all blow it at times. Like I tell Eve, I can hear myself when I am blowing it and I even tell myself to stop. LOL. But then I blow it anyway. But I know how I want to handle things and I always keep that goal in my mind. As time goes on I blow it less often.
What I would have suggested in the situation you described is to start off with what Eve said, "That's an interesting choice of attire." But instead of threatening not to take her I probably would have said something like, "I expect most people there will be dressed nice so I chose to wear this dress." And then let her wear her jeans. When she is the only one not dressed up she would feel uncomfortable and out of place. Next time she would probably choose differently.
Whoo, that's tough, Melanie! Stori, would L. be at the age to be embarrassed byt that? I love discussing this. It gets my brain working in that frame of mind!
Yes, we all lose it, Stori! Don't feel bad! LOL! I swear, you can have some real fun with this and argue much less with your DD! It just takes a lot of work at first, so she can see that you mean business!
Doesn't it make sense though, Eve? If she insists she change, she will be angry at Stori (and Stori at her) before they leave, during the event, and afterwards. The whole time her daughter will be thinking that she is old enough to wear what she wants, what a mean mom she has, etc. This way they leave for the party happy and when her daughter is uncomfortable and feeling out of place she is thinking how she wished she wore the outfit her mom suggested. Mom comes out looking like she really does know what she is talking about and her daughter can blame no one for her choice of clothes but herself. And I bet next time she makes a better choice.
Tough in a good way, Melanie. You know how I always say I'll have a tough time when the permission slip is forgotten for a field trip! Uggh! Will I be able to keep DD home??
It does make sense that she won't be angry with Mom and that she will figure it out on her own. Since I'm not quite into this side of the bahvior issues, I have a tough time with these situations. I know you have to move into more of an area where they are *thinking* for themselves.
Is that the difference between doing what you suggested and saying "I'll be glad to take you when you are dressed appropriately." Is there more of the *thinking* and *learning* put upon the child?
I have to say though, that what I love is if you keep the L&L "water off my back...I am not ruffling my feathers" attitude, it still is going to go much smoother. Like your friend you were mentioning above. So no matter what, you can always try someting, and learn from it, and do better next time.
Absolutely, Eve. It's all about getting them to think. Everyone learns best by figuring it out on their own. Stori could lecture her daughter until she is blue in the face but the whole time her daughter will resist putting on that skirt.
At age ten, it's really not a huge deal to bring her daughter somewhere in jeans. Small pricetag. A little bit of embarassment perhaps, but not a big deal as far as Stori is concerned. It becomes more of an issue as her daughter becomes older and goes to even more formal events. But if Stori has taken the roll of telling her daughter how to dress, her daughter can only make a bad decision if she is going to have any control. So this battle will go on and on. Let the child figure out now when it is okay to dress more casual or more formal and be done with it.
Eve, it definitely becomes harder to follow through with the L & L stuff as they get older. Saying uh-oh and carting them off to their room is the easy part. Letting them learn from their own mistakes when you desperately want to jump in and solve their problems is so hard. Parents can see so easily sometimes how a situation can be fixed and think that by doing it they are showing their kids love. But it truly is robbing them of a significant learning opportunity. I don't want to rob from my kids. I want them to make their mistakes now when the pricetag is low so they will have had lots of practice making decisions and living with the consequences when they are older and dealing with much bigger issues. That's why I stick with this program.
Stori, that is a difficult one. I agree with those who have said let your daughter L&L (and I love the idea behind L&L - wish I'd had you all to advise me way back when).
I wonder if your daughter was testing you to see how you'd react (as if she didn't already know). Certainly if she got to the event and wasn't dressed appropriately, she'd have known and remembered.
I think your big mistake was to tell the other moms about it. I always felt one of the big rules of parenting is to try to avoid embarassing your children in public places UNLESS they are already embarassing you. (One of my sons tried out being really disrespectful to me at coffee hour at church one Sunday, with all his friends standing around. I looked at him and said "OK, Greggy (he hated that), come here - we're going home." He never tried to show off to his friends again about how he could get away with dissing his mother.) But other than something like that, I tried to keep the embarassing stuff private and it really helped our relationships.
My rule with my sons was that they could wear pretty much what they wanted in "their" settings - school, with their buddies, etc. - within limits. The limits were no holes or tears in the jeans, no rude images or words on shirts. But when they were with me and how they looked would reflect on me (church, shopping, outings), they would dress in a way minimally acceptable to me for the occasion.
I always wanted a daughter, but Oh, I don't envy you mothers of daughters one bit when it comes to clothes today. There have been other posts about how difficult it is to find "decent" clothes for girls these days, and I am appalled and really annoyed by what I see young girls and teenagers wearing "out in public". I remember my dad wouldn't let me wear shorts except for "appropriate" places - picnics, the back yard, etc. And never on the public street. (This was, of course, the 40s and early 50s.)
I wore dresses until I was 8. I would not wear a dress again until I was grown. Why not buy her or have her wear proper slacks instead of a skirt. I mean why make battles where there doesn't need to be one? Yes jeans were not right to wear for something like you were attending but forcing her to be uncofortable at the expense of pleasing other is not right either. Maybe she doesn't like dresses period. She doesn't have to. No law says we have to wear them to be dressed proper.
Oh and don't talk about her with your friends and surely not where she might hear you or it will get back to her through her friends. You are telling the mom the mom tells the daughter the daughter tells your daughter. I lost a lot of respect for my mom over things like that. Nothing was a secret when it came to my mom and it still isn't. I looked at it like she had no respect for me and that she was trying to get sympothy at my expence. I understand that might not be what you are doing but that might just be the way she will take it. I talk about things my DD 14 does but only to people I can trust that it won't get back to her.
Fight the battles that will effect and possible save her life. think of all the women that pray that their daughters would cover up.
that is uncomfortable. and I am going to bed now. LOL
Melanine,
Lotte ended up wearing her bluejeans with a nice shirt and cute black shoes, she wasn't the slight bit uncomfortable that she was the only one in jeans! She is a total leader always has been, and loves being different..SIGH
Ginny,
My daughter isn't easily embarassed, she actually involved all the other girls in our conversation and had them confessing that they really don't like to dress up either! LOL
Most of the moms admitted that they had to make their daughters dress up..What happened to the girls wanting to be all dressed up with their little bobby socks?
Bobby,
Never would I force my duaghter to be uncomfortable for the sake of others. Since you and Ginny brought up not talking about it with other parents, because it might make her feel uncomfortable or the trust has been broken, etc..I asked her opinion. She said she wasn't uncomfortable and just expressed that all of her friends know that she doesn't like to dress up. I explained that if something does make her uncomfortable, please bring it up so mom doesn't make that mistake again. Truly I am blessed to have a daughter like her. I love the fact she is who she is and I would never try to take that from her. Thanks for all of the wonderful feedback, this is truly a learning experience!
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