Carseat Question
Moms View Message Board: Parenting Discussion: Archive July-December 2003:
Carseat Question
DH's dad gave us his DD's old carseat (infant/toddler) for when Kaitlyn gets bigger. I know he has never been in an accident, the carseat was made in 9/97 butI dont know if it is trustworthy. How long can a carseat be used before needing a new one? It is an Evenflo. I would almostprefer to buy a new one to assure her safety but DH insists on using the old one. (Of course, she wont be using this for a while because it is a front facing one). Just need opinions. TIA
I'm on my way out the door right now so this will be a quickie. I'll post more info later...
DON'T use it. It will be too old by the time your DD is ready to use it. CPS Techs recommend destroying car seats when they reach 5-6 years of age. More later... I have to pick up my DD from Kindergarten.
go to safetyalerts.com you can put the make & model of the carseat in & see if there have been any recalls. If you can buy another one, it's always better to get a new one. As for me, I had to use the one that someone gave me. I know that they may recommend you destroy it, but think about it- if it's safe now, it will be safe then. If you buy a new one later when she needs it, and it isn't safe 4-5 years from then (provided it hasn't been recalled or you haven't gotten into any accidents) then it wasn't safe to begin with. When we were little, they didn't even use carseats. If the carseat is approved and is buckled in correctly, it should be safe.
Guidelines for using second hand seats can be see here...
CPSafety.com - Used Seat Check List
I don't agree with you, Mindy. The plastic shell, harness and buckles of car seats age with time from the date of manufacturer. In fact, new car seats bought today have expiration dates on the back of them. The integrity of the shell/harness/buckles deteriorates with time and it's questionable if they will function correctly in the event of a crash. If someone uses a car seat past the expiration date that removes the manufacturer from liability. I agree an old car seat is better than NO car seat, but only in the case when a family is in dire straights financially. Even so, there are agencies and CPS techs who are more than willing to help families in need to be sure children are safe in vehicles.
The "When we were little, they didn't even use car seats" argument doesn't fly with me either. The death and injury rates of kids involved in crashes back then was very high, which is exactly why they started requiring the use of car seats. I'm not pointing a finger directly at you. The general public has the same misconceptions. I'm passionate about Child Passenger Safety issues and plan on becoming a certified CPS technician.
Boxzgrl,
Be sure to keep Kaitlyn rear facing until she's at least 12 mos. AND 20 lbs.. Those are the bare minimum requirements for turning a baby forward facing. More info at these sites...
CPSafety.com - Front facing too soon?
http://www.parentsplace.com/babies/safety/articles/0,10335,240282_263876,00.html
(UG, I couldn't get the site above to link because all of the commas. I've copied and pasted the article below.)
Rear-facing car seats: What you need to know
by Kathleen Weber
Common Misunderstanding
There are many misunderstandings and misconceptions about the crash environment that lead even the best-intentioned parent or pediatrician to believe a child is "safe" facing forward when s/he is still very young. These come from obsolete ideas and advice that may still appear in older pamphlets and pediatric literature but that have been updated in recent years.
The most prevalent misunderstanding is the idea that muscle strength and control have anything to do with whether it is reasonable to face a child forward and subject his/her neck to the extreme forces pulling the head away from the body in a frontal crash.
Crash Dynamics
This will be a somewhat technical explanation, but it is an important concept to understand. When a car hits something else at, say, 25 miles per hour to 30mph, it will come to a stop at a deceleration rate of about 20 or 25G. But, due to the time lag between when the vehicle stops and the occupants eventually do, the head of a forward-facing adult or child may experience as much as 60 or 70G.
Physiological Impact
Even strong neck muscles of military volunteers cannot make a difference in such an environment. Rather it is the rigidity of the bones in the neck, in combination with the connecting ligaments, that determines whether the spine will hold together and the spinal cord will remain intact within the confines of the vertebral column.
This works for adults, but very young children have immature and incompletely ossified bones that are soft and will deform and/or separate under tension, leaving the spinal cord as the last link between the head and the torso. Have you ever pulled an electric cord from the socket by the cord instead of the plug and broken the wires? Same problem.
This scenario is based on actual physiological measures. According to Huelke et. al. (1), "In autopsy specimens the elastic infantile vertebral bodies and ligaments allow for column elongation of up to two inches, but the spinal cord ruptures if stretched more than 1/4 inch." Real accident experience has also shown that a young child's skull can be literally ripped from its spine by the force of a crash. Yes, the body is being held in place, but the head is not. Is it a statistically rare event? Yes. If it's my child, does it matter that it's rare?
Facing Directions
When a child is facing rearward, the head is cradled and moves in unison with the body, so that there is little or no relative motion that might pull on the connecting neck.
Another aspect of the facing-direction issue that is often overlooked is the additional benefit a child gains in a side impact. Crash testing and field experience have both shown that the head of a child facing rearward is captured by the child restraint shell in side and frontal-oblique crashes, while that of a forward-facing child is thrown forward, around, and often outside the confines of the side wings. This can make the difference between a serious or fatal head injury and not.
Turn-Around Time
There are no magical or visible signals to tell us, parents or pediatricians when the risk of facing forward in a crash is sufficiently low to warrant the change, and, when a parent drives around for months or years without a serious crash, the positive feedback that the system they have chosen "works" is very difficult to overcome. When in doubt, however, it's always better to keep the child facing rearward.
In the research and accident review(2) that I did a few years ago, the data seemed to break at about 12 months between severe consequences and more moderate consequences for the admittedly rare events of injury to young children facing forward that we were able to identify. One year old is also a nice benchmark, and the shift to that benchmark in the last few years has kept many kids in a safer environment longer and has probably saved some lives, some kids from paralysis and some parents from terrible grief.
Leg Length
As a side comment, some convertible child restraints indicate in their instructions that a child should face forward when his/her feet touch the vehicle seatback, or alternately when the legs must be bent. This prohibition is not justified by any accident experience or any laboratory evidence, and we are hoping that these instructions will soon be revised. The only physical limit on rear-facing use is when the child's head approaches the top of the restraint shell. At this point, s/he should be moved to a rear-facing convertible restraint, or, if the child is already using one, to its forward-facing configuration.
Parents and pediatricians need to know the real reasons for the current push to keep babies rear-facing to at least one year of age, in order to be able to make an informed judgment. Perhaps this will help spread the word.
References:
(1) Huelke DF et. al. Car crashes and non-head impact cervical spine injuries in infants and children. Society of Automotive Engineers, Warrendale, Pennsylvania, 1992. SAE 920562
(2) Weber K et. al. Investigation of dummy response and restraint configuration factors associated with upper spinal cord injury in a forward-facing child restraint. In Child Occupant Protection, SP-986. Society of Automotive Engineers, Warrendale, Pennsylvania, 1993. SAE 933101
Kathleen Weber is the Director of the Child Passenger Protection Research Program at the University of Michigan Medical School
**Forum where you can ask CPS techs and Car Seat Advocates questions and seek their advice and recommendations**
Car Seat Message Board
I have LOTS of resources I would be happy to share if anyone is interested. 
Thanks girls! I knew there were a few of you on here that are the carseat experts I'd rather just spend an extra $100.00 to know my little one is safe. Trina- I knew about the 1yr/20+ pounds to face front but I guess im just getting prepared ahead of time. Thanks again!
Trina, this is a question about the 1 year AND 20 lb to turn them around recommendations. What is someone to do when they have an extremely small child? I've asked questions before regarding removing the five point harness from my dd
s booster seat even though she isn't 40lbs yet (she's 7 1/2 and weighs 39lbs) and since she didn't reach the 20lb mark until she was over three I certainly turned her around before she reached the weigh recommendations. I was one of those who always thought that a baby was placed rear facing for the first year because their neck muscles weren't strong enough, but I see by what your wrote above that is not true, but I didn't see how the 20lbs fit in. Did I put my child in danger by turning her around before she hit the 20lb mark? In retrospect, I don't believe that I could have kept her rear facing that long, but I'm just curious about the reasoning.
Boxzgrl, Glad you're aware of 1 yr./20+ lb. thing.  A lot of people aren't. I see many infants forward facing too soon. It certainly doesn't hurt to start researching and shopping for a convertible seat now. A 5pt. harness is always the safest choice. Recommended seats and a Compatibility Database:
CarSeatData.org
Car-Safety.org
Tunnia, The very bare minimum requirements for forward facing are 12 mos. and 20 lbs.. Experts are now actually recommending extended rear facing. They explain it much better than I could at CPSafety.com - Rear Facing - Unmatched Safety. For further explanation a good place to go would be here: Car Seat Board
I agree with Trina 100% I am glad you are here to provide accurate info
I'm glad too, Trina. You are really an asset to Momsview.
Thanks Trina! I looked at the links, but I still didn't really find out why it has to be 20lbs, but I'm sure there must be a reason. I agree with Clair and Amy, you are definitely an asset to Momsview!
I am not saying we shouldn't have carseats just like the old days, I am just saying that the carsest in question is probably ok as long as it has not been in any accidents or been recalled. A family does not have to be in "dire straits financially". Some families, especially those with young children, are on budgets. When we were on a tight budget and could not afford a hundred dollar carseat for my son ( who was over 20 lbs. at 6 months old ) we went to a christian organization who gave us one for him for free. (note: we were not living in a homeless shelter or anything, we just needed a carseat a little sooner than we had planned). They checked for recalls and gave us the paperwork saying so. You can put a baby under 12 months old in a "big boy/girl" carseat, if it is the kind that can be installed rear-facing too. The reason is because before they are a year, their neck muscles are not strong enough to brace their head if the car gets hit from the rear and the impact could damage their neck. The reason for the weight requirement is that if the car gets hit head on (or from the back), the baby goes into the back of the seat (or into the carseat) instead of through the windshield or the back window. In my opinion, if it is not worn out or has not been recalled or has not been involved in an accident, it is ok to use.
Mommymindy- I'm sure it is okay to use but just so I feel better for myself i'd rather just spend the money getting a new one. Money is not a concern for me so it doesnt really matter. I could just never forgive myself if I was trying to save a few dollars and something were to happen to Kaitlyn. Especially now that i've read that the plastic and casing can wear. Too scary for me to be concerned about. I'm not saying its bad to use a used one but if I have the spare money, why not get a new one?
Our babies are much to precious to take a risk on aging plastic. I served on the founding board of our local Safe Kids coalition, and we heard some heartwrenching stories. It led us to organize regular car seat checks and giveaway programs with help from foundations.
I'm just curious. Where can you go to have your car seat checked for proper installation?
Then I have another question.
I have Timmy in his seat and it is tight if he is wearing a jacket; however, if he isn't then it is loose. Not to sound stupid but how tight is too tight and how loose is too loose?
Boxzgrl, it's much better to buy a new carseat than to get a used one! There's no need to get one from someone else if you can afford to buy a new one, I agree! Plus your friend can give the carseat to someone who needs it. Or to an organization that helps families in need. I guess I don't understad what the question was in the first place. I thought you were asking if anyone thought it would be safe to use. I wasn't referring to you in my last post, really. I was talking about whoever said that if someone can't afford to buy a carseat, they must be in "dire straits financially". Being in dire straits to me, means you have NOTHING-NO MONEY! It's offensive for people to say things like that in posts, and it excludes people. My opinion is that the carseat would probably be ok to use, and I was not saying that "it's better than no car seat at all" At that point I thought that perhaps you weren't going to be able to invest in a new one. By all means, if you can buy a new one, that's better! It would give you piece of mind to have a new one. Plus, it will make you feel good to buy something new- at least I do when I buy something new. :-)
Kittycat- where we live our firestation does carseat safety checks. They have certain times that you just drive in & they will do it for you.
I understand Mommymindy
Kittycat- In my area I know you can also call the local p.d. and see what they do as far as programs for checking carseats
You can look up Car Seat Clinics and Child Passenger Safety Technicians in your area at these sites.
SeatCheck.org
NHTSA
SafeKids.org
Mommymindy, The advice I gave above concerning second hand car seats is considered "best practice" in the CPS world. If you asked a CPS tech/advocate/expert the same question that is the advice you will be given. It is not recommended or considered safe to use a car seat that is more than 5-6 yrs. old. My children's safety is of utmost importance. We are certainly not wealthy but have always made sure our kids are in safe seats. I've destroyed 3 car seats that have reached the age limit even though they appeared to be OK. As you mentioned, and this was my same point, if a family truly can't afford a suitable car seat, there are agencies that can help. All they have to do is ask and seek assistance. That is the preferred method over using an old seat.
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I was talking about whoever said that if someone can't afford to buy a carseat, they must be in "dire straits financially". Being in dire straits to me, means you have NOTHING-NO MONEY! It's offensive for people to say things like that in posts, and it excludes people.
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Mommymindy, I think you misinterpreted what was said and skipped over a very important part of what WAS said
"I agree an old car seat is better than NO car seat, but only in the case when a family is in dire straights financially. Even so, there are agencies and CPS techs who are more than willing to help families in need to be sure children are safe in vehicles.
I know Trina did not mean to insult or exclude ANYONE it's just not in her nature.
It's OK. I understand now. Sometimes people who are more well off are oblivious to anything else around them & think that if someone isn't doing as well as them, then they are just dirt poor. And sometimes people bust their butts to get to where they are in life & forget what it took to get there. If that's not you, then I apoligize, I misunderstood your tone. As you may be able to tell from my posts, my children's safety & well-being takes priority over anything! I agree that you should buy new carseats, cribs, playpens, strollers, etc... if you can do it. I also put my 2 children in carseats on the airplane when I was 7 months pregnant (my children were 3 and 1) even though everyone looked at me like I was crazy, lugging 2 toddlers, my big butt, 2 huge carseats and all aour carry-ons, I didn't care! Anyway, sorry about the miscommunication, but the "less fortunate family" topic is a real touchy one for me!!
((((Mommymindy))))I have never seen anyone here treat anyone differently over how much money that did or did not have.
I can understand where money can be a touchy issue for plenty of people -those with it and without it - it's just one of those touchy subjects.
I do know Trina well enough to say with 100% certainty that she would never discriminate against someone because of money - again I have just never seen it in her nature. She is just very passionate about carseat safety
Good for you for using the carseat on the plane - you did the right thing.
ok. I have just been there, done that with the financial struggles!
Everything is OK now.
Okay I"m a little confused....I always thought I was very up on carseat safety and of course know to destroy one that's been in an accident and to never buy second hand or use the ones rental car companies supply. However, I hadn't heard they 'expire' after five or six years! The buckles seem very sturdy! Just like the vehicle seatbelts, actually. They make a loud, solid 'click' when I buckle them and why would the plastic shell deteriorate? Is it not made of good stuff to begin with? I live in NY, so my carseats have suffered thru many cold winters, but so have my outdoor play slides and swings, and they seem fine, too. If plastic was going to go bad, I would expect it to happen to those play toys left out in the rain and hot sun and snow day after day, year after year. A carseat at least stays in the car and may get hot and may get cold, but it doesn't get wet or anything.
I suppose I should have begun this by saying my baby nephew is riding around in my 1996 Evenflo On My Way carseat, and my almost three year old is riding around in my 1996 Evenflo Ultara V carseat. Both were actually manufactured in 1996, as well. So they're seven years old. But I still don't understand why they are bad! What are the heartwrenching stories one of you mentioned that you've heard?? I've only heard those stories about seats that have hairline cracks and fractures due to having been in an accident.
Also, my daughter will be three next month and is 29 pounds. The top of her head is at the top of the seat now, with maybe half an inch to spare. At this point, with my other daughter, she was over 35 pounds and even taller, and we put her in the Fisher Price Safe Embrace booster from 1999. That one does not have a harness, you use the vehicle seatbelt. It has guides on the cloth and if the child's shoulder is within those two lines, she fits in the seat. So we used it. I know my other daughter is too tiny for that booster, but her head reaching the top is concerning me. The seat goes up to 43 pounds. Suggestions?
I think the difference between the plastic yard toys and a carseat is that if a carseat is in an accident, and the plastic shell is old and detiorating, it may not perform properly. Yard toys aren't going to be holding your child in a potential accident.
Good point, Amy. Toys are not designed or expected to protect children from the forces of an automobile crash.
Here is a thread at the Car Seat board about expiration dates.
Why do car seats expire?
More on this topic at car-safety.org...
How many years can I use my car seat?
Guidelines for using second hand seats:
Used Seat Checklist
Kate, The Evenflo On My Way you mentioned might have a recall.
Evenflo On My Way recall
Is your DD (almost 3) in the Evenflo Ultara? Is she rear facing or forward facing? If she's rear facing it's recommended to have at least 1 inch of hard plastic above the child's head. Forward facing - the ears must be below the top of the seat. Personally, I'd replace it because of it's age, but that's your judgement call. Are her shoulders above the top harness slots? If so she has outgrown the seat. Rear facing - the harness straps need to be at or below the shoulders. Forward facing - the harness straps need to be at or above the shoulders. The weight limit is 40 lbs. so she's fine there.
If you're interested I'd be happy to share my resources concerning car seat recommendations and a Compatibility Database.
Ug, it's late and time to hit the sack. I almost forgot...
Thanks, Claire!
Mommymindy, GOOD for you for using car seats while flying!  I just read this thread (below) at the Car Seat board tonight. Can you imagine what that flight would have been like if her baby was on her lap?! Yikes!
My flying experience...
Trina, I have a challenge for you. :o) I have 2 kids who could use car seats forever. Chrissy is 9, but probably only around 50 lbs. She still fits in the booster, but the 5 point straps don't fit anymore. She really could use the support, but my only choice is to use the regular seat belt straps.
Sonja is almost 21, and even though she is only about 55 lbs, she is at least as tall as my 10 year old. Her feet touch the floor. She has very little upper body or neck control. I use the regular seat belt on her, and she sits in the regular seat. It is far from being a great situation. It would be nice if the van came with a 5 point youth sized harness, but that sure isn't going to happen!
Any great ideas??????
Marcia, my first thought was a Britax Husky (large car seat that harnesses to 80 lbs.) but I'm not sure if or when it will be available in Canada. I'm aware of other special needs seats and a harness, but again, things are different in Canada. I'll do some research and consult with my CPS tech friends and see what they suggest.
Marcia, my friend who has a daughter with CP leaves her in her wheelchair. I guess after it gets lifted in there are straps to tie it down.
This is off-topic slightly, but equally as dangerous. We saw a pick-up truck with two dogs in the bed of the truck. They were a St. Bernard and a black lab. The black lab was standing on something, so he really wasn't even down in the bed of the truck. If that truck had stopped suddenly, the black dog for sure would have been thrown out of the truck. They didn't appear to be tethered in the back of the truck. Such beautiful dogs and I was terrified for them.
Trina, there are special, oversized carseats available, but they seem to only go up to 60". If Sonja isn't that tall, she's very close. The biggest deal is height for these girls, because they'll never be heavy enough to be too big for any of the seats. You can find the special seats at www.adaptivemall.com .
Kaye, our van is not wheelchair accessible. In order to do that, it would be major money, and I wouldn't be able to have the other 3 kids with us.
Marcia, sorry it took so long to get back to you. I was waiting for replies from my CPS friends. Not much but here is what I got.
Harnesses - worth checking out...
EZONpro.com
SnugSeat.com
Adaptivemall.com
AAP document
You're already aware of many of these, and your girls may be too tall as you mentioned. Britax does have a special needs seat (Traveler Plus) but I believe it's the same shell as the Husky and has a much bigger price tag. Yikes! The Husky doesn't have a specific height limit. A child is too tall for it if his/her shoulders are above the top harness slots or his/her ears are over the top of the back of the seat. It's a HUGE seat and designed for bigger/older kids. Here is a pic of DD in her Super Elite (former non-LATCH Husky version).
Pic of older child (11) in a Super Elite:
Super Elite photo
More Britax info at Britax
They list four Britax retailers in Ontario: Ottawa, Toronto, North York and Thornhill. As I mentioned, I'm not even sure the Husky is available in Canada yet.
HTH, even just a *tiny* bit!
Trina, thanks for all of the info. I've been going over it for 2 days. The prices on special car seats are ridiculous!!!!! The harness looks great for Sonja, and my mom could get one in Florida.
Even though Britax is listed for those areas, they won't have anything before November. Still, only one seat has been approved for Canada, and it's one of the baby seats. Again, I might get my mom to bring one like yours from FL. Both girls would fit in it, I'm sure. It's not often they're both in the van together, and when they are, Sonja could use the harness.
The person I spoke to mentioned a Jupitar seat, but I haven't googled it yet. Off to do that now.
Thanks again!
You're not kidding about the prices! Even worse in Canada. YIKES! Before purchasing a US seat I would look into legalities. I just read info about this recently. Let me dig it up and post back.
The Jupiter seat is a belt positioning booster and is available in Canada. I believe I've seen it at the Canadian Sears web site. It's a good booster, reasonably priced, nice and kushy but I'm not sure if it will offer the extra support you're looking for.
Here you go. Also included pics of the Jupiter seat.
Considering a foreign seat?
Discussion on this topic...
Will they confiscate my seat?
Jupiter Komfort Kruiser
Bottom line - I'm screwed. LOL I either pay close to a thousand dollars for a seat here, or I buy the illegal one there for less than $200.
Decisions decisions!!!
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