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I want my daughter to be Baptised, but...

Moms View Message Board: General Discussion: Archive June 2004: I want my daughter to be Baptised, but...
By Rayanne on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 10:55 am:

my DH doesn't. I am a Catholic and he is a Christian. I was Baptised when I was a baby, and I really want my DD to be as well. She will also wear my Christaning Gown. He thinks that it should be her decision, because Christians choose when to do this. I said that she can choose what religion she wants but I still want her baptised. He says no. What can I do? I don't want to do it without him. I want to do it at the Church where it was done to me and it's also where I went from birth to about 12th grade. HELP!!!!

By Babysitbarb on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:11 am:

My Dh is catholic and Im not, so his family is very strong on baptising also as babies. We always agreed that we would wait until they are old enough to make their own decision on this subject. Of course I had many battles with the in-laws over this until my DM finally explained to them as a baby they don't sin so if anything ever happens to them they would be ok anyways.Maybe you could do a church dedication instead of the baptism and then there would hopefully be a happy medium.

By Rayanne on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:14 am:

What happens at a Church dedication? I've never heard of that?

By Ginny~moderator on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:29 am:

Actually, Rayanne, Catholics are Christians. I am guessing you mean your husband is a member of a Protestant Christian church which does not practice infant baptism.

I understand that Catholics do believe in infant baptism, and is very important. However, once she is baptised as a Catholid the Church, at least, will consider her Catholic forever. And, if she is baptised as a Catholic, some (not many, but some) Protestant denominations might have a problem with it.

I don't know how strongly you feel about this vs. how strongly your dh feels about it. I will say, whatever you do, please don't have your daughter baptised behind your husband's back. He might consider that a real violation of trust.

And, if this is a strong issue for each of you, I think you have a lot you need to talk about.

By Emily7 on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:36 am:

They are introduced to the church & a prayer is said for them.
My DH is also Catholic & what a battle we had especially with the problems my son was born with. The funny thing is, my in-laws don't go to church!
My BIL & SIL had both their kids baptised in a church they have never gone to. In fact my BIL says he doesn't believe, they just did it to make everyone happy. I think that is wrong, because my understanding of a Catholic Baptism, is you are promising to teach your child about God & the Catholic beliefs. Basically raise your child as a Catholic in the Church. I don't know how accurate that is.

By Emily7 on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:38 am:

Do you attend the Church?

By Rayanne on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:47 am:

I haven't in a while, but I want to go back. My DH doesn't and it is something that I want to do together, especially when it involves raising our daughter.

My husband is a Christian and he attended a non-denominational church out in Mango. It was Bay Area Church of Christ.

By Debbie on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 12:04 pm:

I am a practicing Catholic and so is my dh. We had both of our boys baptised. When you have your children baptised it means that you are going to raise them Catholic and you are going to teach them about God and the ways of the Catholic church. Unless, you are serious about going back to the church and raising your dd as a catholic then I would wait to have her baptised. Also, some Catholic churches will not baptise your baby unless you have been attending their church for awhile and are an active member.

Good luck to you. I hope you and your dh can come to a compromise.

By Janet on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 12:07 pm:

I grew up in the Methodist church, where we practiced infant christening. As a teenager, I was then confirmed into the church. My oldest dd was christened as an infant, too. Later, I became a member of the Christian Church (Restoration church), where baptism by immersion is practiced (when a person is old enough to make the decision). Even though I'd been christened as an infant, I went ahead and was baptized, because it was an important expression of my faith. My dd made her decsion at age 11, and she was also immersed. My youngest dd, who was not christened as an infant (because we had been members of the Christian Church when she was born), made her decision at age 8 and was immersed. Here's my point: I can understand why your dh doesn't want to have your dd christened, given his Christian Church beliefs. But the way I resolved the issue in my mind was to view the infant christening as an outward expression of your intention to raise your dd in a Christian home, surrounding her with the support of your church. Later, when she is old enough, then let her become immersed as an expression of her personal decision. I truly don't believe that one cancels the other. Having said that, I must tell you that I agree with your dh that it is very important that she make her own decision later on, but I also think there's a place in all of this for the beautiful tradition of your own background. I hope you can reach a compromise on this!

By Amecmom on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 12:28 pm:

Good advice Janet. I believe it certainly can't hurt, and if it makes you feel better (safer) to have your baby baptised, then you and your husband really need to talk about it. As Janet said, one baptism won't preclude her from a later baptism in whatever denomination she decides to be.

I know that growing up Roman Catholic, infant baptism is very important, because in RC dogma only the baptised will go to heaven, because baptism "washes away" original sin. Now, do I really believe that an unbaptised child ends up in a neither heaven nor hell place called Limbo? No. I do not. Will I have my daughter baptised? Absolutely. Think of it as insurance:).
This is not easy, and I truly hope you and your husband can some to some agreement.

By Boxzgrl on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 01:28 pm:

I didnt have Kaitlyn baptised even though both DH and I are the same religeon. Instead we had her dedicated. From my understanding when you baptise them you are bringing them into that religeon, when you dedicate them you are thanking God for such a miracle and dedicating their life back to the Lord. That way you are dedicating your child to the Lord but your not choosing your childs religeon for them. For DDs dedication we also had to promise to raise her the best way we know how under the guidance of the Lord. It was really nice and I know when shes older and understands religeon a bit more, she can decide when she wants to be baptised.

Just a reminder, I'm not heavily into religeon so don't quote me on this but I believe thats what the difference is.

By Sunny on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 01:32 pm:

You need to sit down with your Dh and talk about this. You need to put into words why this is important to you and let your Dh explain why he feels the way he does. I get the feeling from your post that your husband has the final say (if I'm wrong correct me) and whatever you decide has to be a mutual decision, one that you both are comfortable with. I would also suggest having a talk about what kind of religious education you want her to be exposed to and experience so she can make a decision when she is older. I was not baptized as an infant (even though all of my older siblings had been), but I later found out the reason my mother decided not to do it. I did ask to be baptized when I was 15.
Ginny, which Protestant churches don't practice infant Baptism? I believe Baptists wait until the children are preteens or teenagers (someone help me out, because I'm not sure), but I'm curious which others wait. I had all of my children baptized as infants and I am Lutheran.

By Dmom on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 01:36 pm:

What about a win-win situation?

It is a counseling tool my Mom uses sometimes with her clients.

My husband and I have used it on occaision.

It goes something like this using your dilemma as an example:

Rayanne: "a:Look, DH and family, this means a lot to me. I want our DD to wear my gown and have this sacred service because it is part of who I am. b:But I respect that fact that who you are is important to you, especially when it comes to these types of matters. c:So, what if we have her baptised in my gown and then agree that later, when she is older, if she wants, she can be baptised as well."

(The above is called making a "sandwich")
a. Restate your position.
b.Respect your partner's position.
c.Then state both positions.

dh: "But then, she is baptised twice and I don't want to do it Catholic. I want it to be her decision.

Sandwich:
Restate your position: "I understand that. But I want our dd to have this sacred experience. It is part of who I am.

Partners position: I understand that you don't want to do it twice but I agreed when she is older that she can be baptised again if she wants.

Both positions: So, can we agree (set up for agreement)that since I want our dd to have this sacred experience because it is part of who I am later, is she wants to be baptised again, I will agree because that is part of who you are? (To be baptised when she can decide).

That way, you both get your way.

It works sometimes with tough subjects like sacred experiences when folks have trouble "letting go" (and for good reason) what is more important than God?

Also, another point you might consider:

Even if she is baptised twice, once as a baby and once later on, can we ever celebrate God's love for our children too much? So what, if it's celebrated twice! Some folks celebrate God's care of their children daily. I suppose if we stop and think about it, we all should celebrate God's love for our kids every day. So, have two sacred ceremonies, thank God twice. :-)

Anyway, that's my shot at it.

Of course, once you know what a "sandwich" is--it doesn't work as well-although it still can work....

My dh and I can be having a disagreement and I will start restating my position and then state his position and then state both positions.

And my beloved spouse will say: "Oh no, you don't!!!! Don't you start that 'sandwich stuff' on me!!! You always win when you start making those sandwiches!!!"

Me: (ever so sweetly) "No, honey, we both win, that is why I love them so..."

:-)

Good Luck and God Bless.

Shot, I did it again, I have the longest post, again, I am a true chatterbox.

But I promise, the sandwich thing can work.

By Rayanne on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 04:01 pm:

You are too funny Dmom. I will have to try that. Iwill let you know how it works out. Thank you all so much for your advice. I am going to make my DH read this post tonight. Hopefully that will work t:):).

By Rayanne on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 04:02 pm:

You are too funny Dmom. I will have to try that. I am going to show my husband this post tonight and see how that works as well. Thank you all so much for all of your advice.:)

By Ginny~moderator on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 07:16 pm:

Sunny, certainly the Baptists, Latter Day Saints (Mormons) and some Church of Christ and/or Evangelical Christian churches don't generally approve of infant baptism. Personally, although I was not church-connected at the time of my sons' births, it was important to me that they be baptised (and to this day I can't tell you why). But I do understand those who believe it should be a reasoned, relatively adult choice. Some denominations will offer "dedication" rather than baptism for families who don't want infant baptism, but I didn't make a list in my very limited research.

I do believe that if two parents each have strong opinions about infant baptism, they probably also have strong opinions about the faith in which the child should be raised - and that this should be seriously discussed between them. Seems to me there are some serious issues that need to be worked out. One thing, this child will know that faith and religion are important to both her parents, even if they don't agree on the details.

By Kate on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 07:28 pm:

Okay, here is my opinion, please don't get upset. It seems to me, from the limited amount of info I have here, that yours and your husband's faiths aren't of extreme importance to you. If they were, I doubt the two of you would ever have married. Catholocism and the rest of Christianity are very different. Strong Catholics and strong 'rest of Christianity' people don't mix well for marriage. So if either of your faiths were terribly important to you I think one of you would have converted before the marriage. Also, if faith is so important, I would think you'd both be attending your churches. Neither of you do. Therefore, the conclusion that *I* have reached (again, not knowing you and with limited info) is that you, Rayanne, want to baptise your baby because it is just something your family does, and you want her to look cute in your old gown and in your old church. It's sentimental to you, not really a faith based decision. Your husband, on the other hand, has had the opposite done in his family, no infant baptisms. So that is what HE wants to continue with. Doing something as important as this just for continuity's sake is wrong, IMO.

Just to let you know, I was raised Catholic and had both my daughters baptized Catholic. Why? Because I wanted them to look pretty in a pretty dress and because it was just always done in my family. I was NOT attending church and I had no real faith. It was wrong of me to do that for that reason. Very wrong. Right after my second daughter's baptism I found God for real, and discovered that I did not agree at all with Catholocism and now I am simply a Christian believer attending a non denominational church. Neither of my daughters will make their first holy communion, first penance, or confirmation.

By Amy~moderator on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 07:49 pm:

I have not had any of my three boys baptized, even though I was baptized as a Catholic. I was a practicing Catholic for awhile, and then a few years ago, I decided that I did not agree with Catholicism as a whole. I am a very spiritual person with a strong faith in God. I feel that I have a very personal relationship with Him. However, my faith in God has come solely from my personal growth, from my heart. I had to make this decision on my own - my beliefs are my own. I am not a part of any particular religion - this is my personal choice. However, God is in my life and my heart every day. I want my children to find God in this way, with guidance from myself and my husband. My dh agrees with this. I speak with my 5 year old often about God and His love for us. Ultimately, it will be their decision. I can only say that I understand where your dh is coming from. And I agree whole-heartedly with Kate - you should really think hard about WHY you want your dd baptized. If it is for the sentiment and tradition, I strongly urge you to reconsider. Unless you have a very strong and firm Catholic faith, you should not have her baptized IMHO. The best of luck with your decision, and I am so glad that you have enough trust and respect for the members here to ask for their opinion.

By Amecmom on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 08:04 pm:

Just to chime in ... IMHO, there is nothing wrong with wanting this "rite of passage" for your daughter, even if it's just for tradition. As a former Roman Catholic, current Episcopal, I find myself a little sad that my son will not receive first penance and first communion in a formal "rite of passage" - even though these things are not important to the spiritual me, or to my relationship with God. So much of religion is also cultural. I know when he is 8, my relatives will be expecting to be invited to a first communion party for my son. It will be strange for them.
It was strange for me to have him receive as an infant at his baptism.
Don't let your husband make lite of your wanting this, even if it's just a lovely tradition you want to follow, and not an especially religious reason.
Ame

By Tink on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 08:30 pm:

I totally agree with Kate. You are committing to raise your child in the Catholic church but you are not attending it. Baptism can be done if you choose to return to attending regularly or if your child decides in the future that she believes in a protestant faith. While this does have cultural influences you are making a decision for your child's spiritual life that you don't currently uphold. Do you plan on attending as soon as she is baptized? Is your dh supportive of your daughter being raised in the Catholic faith as she grows older? If this is not the case, you are baptizing her for the wrong reasons and making promised to God that you don't intend to keep. JMHO

By Coopaveryben on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 09:47 pm:

I think we could debate over infant baptism forever but the fact is it is important to you. He married a catholic and this is part of who you are. Try explaining to your DH how important baptism is to your faith. Martin Luther once said, " I would rather baptize thousand's than to have missed one"....okay that is not an exact quote but it is pretty close....in other words it isn't going to hurt her to be baptized and better safe than sorry, it isn't going to make her a devote catholic because she was baptized as an infant in the catholic church.

Maybe you could start him on baby steps and just see if he would be open to your priest coming over and talking with you two about it. How would he and you feel about a compromise...a baptism in a Lutheran, Presbyterian, or methodist church?

By Kate on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 09:49 pm:

Rites of passage? Lovely tradition? I definitely have a problem with that. This isn't turning a magic age and getting your driver's license. This isn't graduation. It isn't about having turkey and stuffing every Christmas or hiding eggs every Easter. It's a serious vow/committment, and it should be viewed that way and only undertaken in that manner. Tink is right....doing it for the wrong reasons would be making promises to God you don't intend to keep. Believe me, I did that and it was wrong. I stood up there repeating 'I will' to each question from the priest, and I knew I had no intention of following through. But the girls sure looked cute! And the party afterwards was fun! And the pictures came out great! And when I finally found God for real....boy, did I feel horrible! How blithe I was, how arrogant and conceited....fortunately God forgives me. I won't make that mistake again and I urge you not to make it either. If you truly intend to make your Catholic faith a vital part of your life and your daughter's life, then that's different. But as Ginny pointed out, if you and your husband disagree already, raising her will be difficult until this is all worked out. I pray you'll take this seriously and truly do what's right.

By Coopaveryben on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 09:53 pm:

I also have to add I think most of us loose touch with our faith until we have children then we understand the importance of it and the importance of teaching it to our children. I hadn't attended church in years before my DS was born and now I am very involved because I want my boys to experience the joy and peace that I have always had with me because of my faith.

I agree with Kate too, whatever religion you decide to do it in you are standing before God and making a promise to uphold certain teachings and commitements and it should not be taken lightly.

By Mommyathome on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 10:48 pm:

The church we belong to doesn't practice infant/baby baptism. So, I don't really have any knowledge about why it's done at such a young age.
Our religion wouldn't look down on your daughter if she were baptised catholic, and then decided at a later date to join our church.
However, it does sound like you really want your DD in the same dress that you were christianed in (which is a GREAT idea!). If you decide against the baptism, what about just taking her in to get some really nice pictures done in the dress? That would be a great momento for the both of you.

By Paulas on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:23 am:

I am a Catholic and I teach at a Catholic school although I did lose touch with the church after my parents died. I am Catholic and my husband is not. Both of my children were baptised as infants. My daughter recently made the Sacrament of Reconciliation and will do Holy Communion this coming Sunday. My husband and I discussed which religion we would raise the children before marriage and certainly before having children. Did you and your husband get married in a Catholic Church and if so, wasn't this discussed during your marriage preparation?

This is definitely a decision you need to make together. I know how you feel about her wearing your baptismal gown. My daughter wore mine and this weekend will wear the veil I wore for Holy Communion. However, she needed to understand the importance of Holy Communion before she was allowed to receive it. Last year we lived in a different community and they do first communion and confirmation at the same time...at age 6! I felt she was too young for First Communion, let alone Confirmation.

Good luck with your decision...I've rambled on and am not making much sense. Please, think carefully about what you are doing and don't do it simply for a photo op.

By Amecmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 08:57 am:

Gee Kate, I'm sorry. I guess I really hit a nerve.
Ame

By Kate on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 10:00 am:

Ame--I'm sorry. I do feel strongly about this and I do disagree with you, but I didn't mean to be harsh or to 'bark'. Please forgive me.

By Amecmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 10:09 am:

It's good to disagree, that's how we learn and grow.
Ame

By Rayanne on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 10:55 am:

We got married in a Christian Church. I have not gon ti Church in a while, and I don't know when I will go back. I want it to be something that we do as a Family, especially with my DD. My DH does not like the Catholic Religion and he has stated that to me on numerous occasions. With everything in the news lately about the priests, he doesn't even want one to hold my DD. This is something that I knew about before we got married, but to me LOVE is more important than what religion the other person is. Part of me likes the Catholic Religion, but there are parts of me that don't agree with it. I know that, God forbid, if something does happen to my DD, she will go to Heaven, Baptised or not. I guess it would be more for tradition than anything else, and yes, to please my family. They were upset that I did not get married in a Catholic church, so I don't want to upset them again, especially my Dad. I know that this is probably making some of you dislike me, but now that I think about it, it would be for tradition. Whenever my DH and I would talk about Churches and converting, I said that I would convert to Christianity, because I agree with more things with that Religion. I also want to raise my DD right. I want her in a youth group, and the Catholic church that I attend does not have one. I know that I am being selfish, but it is a beautiful tradition that I want my DD to have done. Please don't be angry with me, but I am between a rock and a hard place. I would NEVER go behind my DH back and do something like this with out him there. I also want it for Godmother and Godfather figures.

By Boxzgrl on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 11:30 am:

I would hope that you would be able to explain what you just wrote here to your family. If they are into religeon as much as you make it seem i'm sure they won't want your DD baptised for the wrong reasons either. This is the point where you need to confront them and tell them you agree more with Christianity and had once talked to your DH about converting. Religeon is not about pleasing those around you, its about pleasing and serving God! And if you cant put him first you shouldnt be religeous at all. JMO

By Rayanne on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 11:47 am:

I know Melissa, and you are right. I have always been scared to talk to my parents because of the bad relationship that I had with my mom growing up and now I don't want to hurt anyone. I am a BIG pushover and I am the type of person that just wants to please everyone so that everyone is happy. I know that I am married now, and the people that I should be thinking about are my DH and DD's happiness, but I can't help but think about everyone elses. I just don't want anyone to be mad if I don't do this. I just don't know what to do.:(

By Momaroze on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 11:57 am:

Very refreshing interesting subject. I have been struggling with this for years.

All I can say is thank-you, I really thought I may be doing a disservice to my ds's. It is so TRUE, I would be in a sense lying to God, and makeing promises I don't intend to keep if I were to go ahead and Baptize. I do believe baptized or not all children go to heaven.

By Emily7 on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:00 pm:

I was told that my dh & I were not really married because we were not married in the Catholic Church. I was also told that my children could not be baptised in the Catholic Church, have you looked into that.
I don't understand why as adults we still need to make our parents happy when it causes problems in our marriage. If you agreed before the birth of your DD its a a decision that has already been made. If your family are christians the should not pass judgement or hold a grudge. I am sure the Church will not baptis if there is that much doubt.

By Amecmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:04 pm:

Does it truly matter in what rite the child is baptised? I really think God is probably having a good chuckle at this whole controversy. A baby is not baptised Catholic or Episcopal, or Lutheran any particular denomination. Choice of denomination comes later, at Confirmation. A child, no matter the sect, is simply baptised a Christian.
Pray about it, and do what you and your husband can agree upon together.
Ame

By Rayanne on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:08 pm:

When I talked to someone, they said that in order for Rylee to be Baptised that our marriage would have to be blessed by a Priest. They asked if that would be ok and I said no because it was already blessed and she said but not by the Catholic Religion. I said that it was a Christian Church and that Catholics are Christians and she said that it didn't matter. Now, I am MAD!!!! She also said that in order for her to be Baptised that we would have to take a class, which would be fine, but that we would have to go to Church every Sunday. At my Church everyone has envelopes and they put money in it and give it to the Church. She asked if I had envelopes and I said no. We don't have the extra money right now, for that. So, if I wanted to do this, I can't because I can't afford to give them money!!!

By Debbie on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:26 pm:

Rayanne, please don't take this the wrong way. The Catholic church takes the sacraments very seriously. They want to make sure that you are practicing the Catholic religion and commited to it before they perform the sacraments. Dh and I got married in the catholic church, we had to attend a marriage workshop that consisted of several classes. We also had to attend baptismal classes. As far as donations, we have never been told of an amount we are suppose to give. They will take anything you can give, even if it is just $1.00. I think it is more that they want to make sure you are going to church and practicing.

It sounds like you are not committed to the Catholic church. Please try not to be hurt or offended. This religion just doesn't sound like the right fit for you and your family.

By Dmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:34 pm:

Should this be moved to the kitchen table before someone gets hurt?

By Texannie on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 12:35 pm:

Of course they want you to attend church. You are standing up before God, the Priest and the congregation pledging to raise your child as a Christian and part of the Catholic faith. No matter which denomination you choose, that is what infant baptism is..the parents promise to raise their children in that faith.
I agree this is a bigger issue than the pretty outfit.

By Claire on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 01:41 pm:

I am starting to realize that the moderator hat is hard to stop wearing LOL

I think that everyone may need a reminder of the religious policy before this discussion gets any more heated. POLICY

By Amy~moderator on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 02:16 pm:

Dondi, thank you for your suggestion. The moderators ARE watching this thread very carefully. Please take a moment to click on the link above (in Claire's post) and read or re-read our policy regarding discussion of religion. Kate and Ame have provided a good example of how to agree to disagree politely.

By Texannie on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 02:17 pm:

I have been so impressed with how polite this discussion is.

By Dmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 02:43 pm:

It is polite.

Maybe I missed the ball.

I read the first question as a question from a Mom/Wife having a disagreement with a Dad/Husband about a religious rite of passage and an heirloom the Mom had saved for the child.

As a reply, (with the best intentions) I offerred a negotiation tool my Mom uses with her clients when an issue does not seem to be one people want to "bend" on (such as the importance of religion).

Then, it seems that the question became about whether or not one goes to church, whether or not one has issues with the importance of a sacrament (a religious service intended to represent a commitment to God), the Catholic Church vs. the Protestant Churches.

Rayanne, I , for one, am not mad at you. You have every right to save something special for your DD and to want to continue a religious practice which was significant to you.

I am sorry that you were told money is an issue and your marriage is not blessed.

After reading this thread, now I have some questions and I put it on The Kitchen Table.

Does anyone know what type of christening gown Jesus wore as a baby?? Funny, I thought He was presented at Temple as an infant by two Jewish folks. And, wasn't he immersed by Cousin John The Baptist in the woods, so was He a Jewish Baptist, but wait...the Baptist don't drink and Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding so I guess the Baptist must have thrown Him out, but then...He tell Peter the foundation of The Catholic Church "upon this rock I shall build my church...but wasn't The Day of Pentecost after The Resurrection and Uplifting into Heaven...so Jesus was a Jewish, Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, Messianic Jew????"

And, of course, none of us are hypocritical Pharisees, right? I mean, come one, the Pharissees thought they were the only one who were right...surely, today, we, as Christians as a whole (not at anyone personally here, I promise) but surely, in Christiandom as a whole in the 21st century, none of us are capable of such an exclusionary attitude as to believe that our religion is right and everyone else is wrong??????? No, not in this modern day and age.

"By their love for one another you shall know them." (???)

More on Kitchen Table, for me, anyway.

This has been interesting. And yes, I am "cutting up" a little bit. But the core of my question is real, I am sincere in my quest, I honestly wonder, if we want to be like Jesus should we really be so strong on denomination???

By Bea on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 03:43 pm:

I had both my sons baptised and educated as Catholics. However, when they were both teenagers, and it was time for each of their Confirmations, I let them decide. They both chose not to take that step, and I had no problem with their decision. They knew what they would be accepting or rejecting at that point, because they had learned about that religion. If your husband is a Christian, he must believe in Baptism. Explain the tradition of "choice with Confirmation" to him, or ask a priest to do so. When he understands that his child isn't losing the right to choose, he may see this situation in a new light.

By Texannie on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 03:47 pm:

Good point Bea. My son didn't get confirmed with his age group cause he just wasn't sure. He was confirmed 2 years later at his decision.

By Rayanne on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 04:20 pm:

I am sorry if I have caused any problems with this post. I didn't mean to. I am still fairly new here (2 1/2 months) so I don't know what is right or what is wrong to post.

My DH does believe in Baptisim, he just thinks that Rylee should decide when it happens and that I am forcing her to be a Catholic if I get her Baptised, and I am not. He was Baptised at his Church when he was 13, by his choice. Rylee can still decide what religion she wants. I will have nothing against her if she chooses a religion that neither me or my DH are a part of. The religion that she chooses will be part of who she is and I will still love her the same way. I have had all the sacraments and I am proud of that, but the only sacrament that I want for Rylee is Baptisim.. That is what I told my DH and he still doesn't see it my way. I don't think that he ever will, unfortunately.

By Texannie on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 04:31 pm:

You didn't do anything wrong with your post.
It's hard. Infant baptism versus age of consent is hotly debated among Christian demonimations. Heck, some even argue about "sprinkling versus dunking" LOL
It is an important decision for a family to make. I hope that you and your dh can find one that makes both of you happy.

By Kate on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 04:51 pm:

No, you certainly didn't do anything wrong, Rayanne! And I certainly don't 'dislike' you for your opinions! I know the pressure you must be feeling. My own mother has sadly commented on how she'll never see my daughters dressed up in a white dress and veil for communion. Then she comments that she'll never see them attired that way PERIOD because she says she won't live long enough to see their weddings. So I know pressure, LOL!

Also, I agree that baptizing her Catholic won't make her Catholic in her heart. It's something that would be DONE to her without her knowledge or consent. When she is older, if she chooses baptism of any faith, then it will be a true expression of HER faith, whatever it may be. *I* was baptized Catholic as an infant, and made all the sacraments. But none of them meant anything to me; I just did them because it was expected of me. Even confirmation meant nothing and I never understood that I was confirming my faith in Catholocism. Chalk it up to extreme boredom with the whole process and no interest whatsoever, and knowing that whether I liked it or not, I was going to do this!! But, I found God for real about four years ago. And last fall I chose to be baptized at my non denominational Christian church by full immersion baptism. I consider THAT my true baptism and the fact that I was originally baptized Catholic doesn't bother me or concern me. It's my rational, age of consent feelings that count. It will be so with your daughter.

Good luck to you...I know this isn't easy or fun for you. I never meant to hurt anyone or cause friction, but I've been on both ends of this and know a bit of where you're coming from and I thought I'd share my experience and urge you to examine your feelings closely and in the end do what's truly right between you and God. :)

By Dmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 05:04 pm:

I agree with Texannie.

You didn't do anything wrong with your post.

And it is hard.

I choose to get a little "out of sorts" so I posted at The Kitchen Table where there is a little more "freedom of speech" and debate.

But it wasn't your fault that I got steamed up.

I am still a little bit steamed up.

Good for my circulation!!!:-)

Plus, I have been dealing with a should-I-stay-or-should-I-go-abused-Mom-situation (see Prayer post) and I haven't had much sleep and I have been kind of feeling protective anyway.

So, when a young lady like yourself post asking a sincere question and I admit, I did not like some of the replies you got, I decided to "have my little say".

I wasn't really angry--after all, I am new here too. And I don't know everybody that well.

But I was steamed about some of the things that were said.

So I took my opinions and posted them at The Kitchen Table. That way, I can be a little steamed.

And some of my questions there really are things I really do wonder about when the Christian community begins to debate these issues.

And if my post are long and confusing, people will figure out when they see my name that I am (hopefully) a well-meaning, long-winded, person who has good intentions. And if they don't want to read my post they have the freedom of choice they can skip them.

One of the reasons my post are so long is because
I do not believe in sharing advice. I believe in sharing life experience and what has worked and what hasn't worked and applying scripture to life situations.

And sharing life experiences takes a long time because life is messy.

It is just my style. I know that if someone honors a group, a pastor, a church or an individual by talking with them about "stuff" then that person who asked deserves an honest answer.

One of the sacred things I honestly believe in is the honor of being the recipient of someone's confidences whether it's a request for an opinion about something as serious as a marriage ceremony or a baptism or simply someone wanting to share the light, funny thing their kids did that day.

The Human Experience is sacred and I don't give advice. I share experience, strength and hope.
And I try to base things on scripture.

Anyway, I am posting this about my feelings and experiences and yes, the post and this thread did trigger some of the reasons I got a little "steamed" up but it is not your fault and I do not think you need to say you are sorry for anything.

Your question did not "steam me" some of the responses to your question did--so I posted at The Kitchen Table.

God Bless You.

By Amecmom on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 05:17 pm:

Rayanne, if we all went through life disliking people for their opinions, nobody would have any friends. People argue and debate and have differing opinions, but as long as those opinions are expressed politely and with sensitivity to others' feelings, then there's no reason to dislike the person just because you don't always see eye to eye.
You have an honest problem, and I hope you can resolve it. If this discussion has given you more to think about, then it was good. As Annie said, and I've been reading about, there is so much debate about the procedure of baptism, that there's no way we could solve the issue for you. Hopefully you and your husband will come to some way to solve it for yourselves.

By Momoffour on Wednesday, June 2, 2004 - 08:56 pm:

my oldest daughter was dedicaded in church. I thought that when she was old enough to make her decision on baptizum I would go along with it. but when she was dedication it was beautiful she was 10 days old the pastor read a few passage out of the bible and all in all it was us dedicating her back to the lord and that we would raise her in a christian way. They did it in front of the church congregation and he asked us a few questions (Yes and No's) and he blessed her with anointing oil and took her away for just a him and her talk where he said that if things go wrong that to know that God will always be there for her. Through the whole ceremony the pastor held her. It was neat and I am glad I did it. My other 3 haven't been dedicated yet. When we moved to Oklahoma it has been hard to find a church that we feel comfortable in like we did there. and I miss going to church. I enjoyed it dearly.

By Bobbie~moderatr on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 01:35 am:

Rayanne, I just wanted to chime in and tell you that you have done nothing wrong. Everything is going just fine with this thread. The moderators are fully aware of what is going on and we are keeping an eye on things. You posted a question, where it goes from there is out of your hands. It's okay...

And just to add a bit... I honestly feel that you need to do what is right for you, DH and DD and if your family doesn't like it too bad. Because you have a long life to live. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time... Big hugs, and don't sweat the small stuff...

By Rayanne on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 10:37 am:

(((((HUGS TO ALL OF YOU)))))

Thank you all so much. I am going to sit down and really think about what it is that I want. I do have one more question though. If I decided not to have Rylee Baptised, and had a Dedication instead, could she still wear my gown, or would that be inappropriate? I've never been to a Dedication, so I don't know the rules of attire are. Thanks again for all of your opinions and help. I love you all.

By Dmom on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 11:00 am:

She can wear the gown.

We did a dedication in a Methodist Church for the girls and we got "all dressed up." and had a lunch at my home afterwards, it was nice.

By Debbie on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 11:34 am:

I don't see why she couldn't wear the gown to a dedication. I think that would be a wonderful idea. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

By Kate on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 12:37 pm:

Yes, she can wear the gown! I meant to suggest that to you, if you did a dedication. I know of people who actually go out and buy christening gowns for the occasion, and others just dress them nicely, or some even do it casually! So she can certainly wear your gown if that is the route you take. :)

By Ginny~moderator on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 02:14 pm:

Of course she can wear the gown. Now, you have to convince your DH and your DH's church that this is an OK thing to do. I would hope they would think it appropriate for parents to dedicate their child to God.

By Bobbie~moderatr on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 10:50 pm:

That would be perfect. I have been to dedications and I have seen babies in gowns for them. I think this is a great idea. And I would suggest a picture of her in the gown for sure....

By Pamt on Sunday, June 6, 2004 - 10:42 pm:

Chiming in late, but I do want to say that for a potentially volatile discussion this has gone rather smoothly :). Almost every Protestant denomination that I know of does infant dedications, even if they also subscribe to infant baptism. Everything else has been well-covered and I especially agree with Kate's viewpoints. Just wanted to clarify a few questions re: Baptists and baptism. I was raised Methodist (UMC) and sprinkled as an infant. At this point my parents were saying that they pledged to raise me in a Christian home, take me to church, etc. and the church pledged to pray for me and support me. My parents attended church sporadically at best, so my christening was mostly for *show.* I began attending a Baptist church (SBC) with friends in middle school and all through highschool. My freshman year in college I joined a Baptist church. Baptists, as do most evangelical Protestant churches, believe in "believer's baptism." That means that you are baptized ONLY after you have made a personal decision to make Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior. This can happen at any age...usually after about age 6 or so, up until whenever. Baptists don't confirm or anything like that. It is a totally personal decision led by the Holy Spirit as to when you accept Jesus as your Savior and then want to publicly "announce" that decision via baptism. My DH was baptized at age 12, I was baptized at age 19 and my 2 DSs at 6 and 7. Although a few evangelical Protestant denominations (Church of Christ for one) believe that the act of baptism is necessary to become a Christian (i.e., "be saved"), Baptists do not. We believe that baptism is an outward picture of an inward decision. The reason Baptists immerse instead of sprinkle is because going down into the water it is a symbol of "dying to self" and having sins figuratively washed away (this has already been done through prayer). Coming up out of the water is representative of the new, eternal life in Christ. It is common to hear pastors say as they baptize, "Buried with Christ in baptism (as the person is immersed) and raised to walk in newness of life" (as the person comes out of the water). This is from the book of Romans. If anyone comes from another Christian denomination, once they have professed faith (i.e., made Christ their Lord through prayer) either by statement or praying at that moment, then they are baptized to join the church. Baptists accept a statement of belief from other denominations and sometimes will accept baptism by immersion from other denominations--depends on the individual church. However, if someone was only sprinkled then baptism by immersion is required to become a church member. You can still be a Christian and an active church participant (inc. partaking in the Lord's Supper) without baptism, but you cannot be a church member without it. HTH.

Rayanne, a baby dedication is certainly an appropriate time to wear your gown. The church probably has a copy of an infant dedication service, but if they don't I will be happy to send you one. My DH is a minister, so I can get you a copy that would be appropriate for any Christian denomination. One thing I would "warn" you about. In a baby dedication, not only do you and your DH pledge to raise your baby in a Christian home, provide church training, etc., but the church promised to pray for you, support and encourage you. With that said, I would make sure you are committed to this church, so the church can be committed to you. It really is a beautiful thing.

P.S. Someone mentioned something about denominational barriers and the problems they create. DH and I personally think denominations are a good thing. There are many styles of worship and ways to go about it---just some basic essential beliefs are the same. We don't all worship in the exact same way and that's okay. That's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors...we don't all like vanilla. :)


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