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Anger Issues

Moms View Message Board: General Discussion: Archive June 2004: Anger Issues
By Cat on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 10:54 pm:

How do you approach someone you think has an anger issue (flies off the handle over little things, holds grudges, yells and screams a LOT) without making them angry? I've come to the conclusion that dh either has an anger problem or this is just "who he is" and he isn't going to change. He's turning more into his father every day. I love his dad, really, but I certainly wouldn't want to live with him or put up with his issues. I know you all have heard (well, read) me complain about how things are, but can you put up with yet another vent? I'm really getting tired of dh's "tantrums". He gets mad about just about everything (never picks his battles--everything is a battle, and usually involves a control issue) and what really bothers me is when he yells at the kids. I can take him yelling at me, including the nasty tone, condicending attitude, swearing and belittling. I know better than to believe what he says and I ignore it. But I HATE when he yells and screams at the boys. Especially when he swears at them and calls them little f-ing b@stards and stupid little babies. I hate telling them to ignore Dad and leave him alone because he's in a bad mood. I'm sure you can imagine, Robin gets the brunt of this. I swear that kid is his father's clone, and I don't want him ending up like his father and grandfather. Granted, Robin needs us to be strict with him, but Randy doesn't. Sometimes Randy gets yelled at a little more strict than needed. The boys are getting to the point that they really don't even hear dh when he yells at them anymore. They've just gotten so used to it they ignore him, which makes him even more angry. Every time I say something to dh, like stop swearing at them or like last night, stop throwing a tantrum (okay, so not the best choice of words, but sometimes the truth hurts), he gets mad at me and I usually get the silent treatment for several days. I know I've said before, issues with us usually never get resolved, they just "dissapear". I know, major lack of communication. But I can't say anything without him getting angry! My mom suggested writing him a letter (I know--you're not supposed to talk to your family about these things because even if you forgive your family may not--but my mom's my best friend and I can tell her anything without her being judgemental). I don't know how he'd take that. It would give him a chance to calm down and think about things before we talked, but then again, the letter may just never be brought up unless I brought it up. I've never been so tempted to leave/kick him out as I have been the last month. I don't want my kids in an environment like this. There is NO physical abuse, just emotional. :( Counsiling is out--he'd never go. I do have several people I could talk to (my pastor, a couple that are friends of mine--he's also a pastor) but that would make dh mad, too. I just don't know how much more I can take. I know, I've said that before. *sigh* It really makes me wonder if dh could be bipolar also (Robin is). He'd never admit it or allow himself to be medicated for it, because he's not the problem--it's everyone else. I really feel stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Thanx for letting me vent, and my original question--How to approach someone with an anger problem without making them angry???

By Melana on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 11:03 pm:

I don't think you can, but the best way is to just sit him down, and tell him right off the bat that you aren't attacking him, and that you don't want him to say anything untill you're done speaking. Then tell him you think he has a problem controling his anger, and if he doesn't get help, you'll be leaving untill he does. I don't think you should have your kids around that, it's unhealthy, and mental abuse is worse than physical. Even if your DH won't go to counseling, you and your kids should, together and seprately(SP?). Give DH a week to make a choice of going to counceling or leaving the house, after that, get the kids and leave for an hour or so, he'll be mad, and you don't want to be around when he's like that, give him time to cool off and think. Well, that's the advice I have, may not be the best, but I think if he doesn't change, you're allowing him to do more damage to the kids by staying in the home.

By Emily7 on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 11:10 pm:

Record him & let him listen to it or watch it. Did his Dad treat him the way he treats the boys? Have you mentioned that he is making the boys feel the same way he was made to feel when he was younger. I have a Dad that gets angry & throws temper tantrums, he did this in front of my children the other day. My son is not used to this & now my Dad knows this unacceptable around my kids.
My Dad was never physical until I really upset him. He had me up against a wall with his hands around my throat. It took 5 adults to get him off me. I was 16 at the time & didn't take crap from anybody, I challenged his authority. Then at 18 we got angry with each other once more & I had one of those big insulated mugs thrown at the back of my head, it got my back instead. A few years ago he hit my Mother. I guess what I am trying to say is that verbal & emotional abuse can very easily turn physical unless he is willing to get help. If your boys are starting to challenge him I would watch it.

By Children03 on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 11:11 pm:

Maybe when your husband is CALM (if he is ever) you should ask him if he and you can have a serious talk. If he agrees, mention to him that you would like to know how he is feeling, if he is upset for any particular reason. I think the best way to talk to someone like this is in a very calm, non-selfish way. Ask questions like,"Is there something that I am doing that upsets you", or "how can I help relieve some of your stress". I don't agree with him EVER yelling at your children in the manner in which you described above. I think that is horrible for you and the children. He is obviously angry about something and it would be nice if he would go to counseling with you. I don't agree with divorce, however, if he is speaking to you and your children like that and refuses to change or get counseling, he is emotionally hurting you and your children. Your children don't deserve that at all.

By Emily7 on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 11:12 pm:

Melana I think you gave good advice.

By Bobbie~moderatr on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 12:15 am:

Since I know this situation well. I can tell you that he is more than likely Bi Polar as is his father. There is evidence pointing to genetic links in Bi Polar patients.... If you are diagnosed bi polar you can generally look back through the family history and find other people with typical symptoms.

In all honesty you are likely going to have to do the changing. In my case it took me getting to the point of leaving for Dh to see what he was doing to the rest of us... He was on a major roller coaster of self pitty issues and one day I had had all I could take. He got mad and left the house. That was it.. I wrote him a note explaining how he made me and the kids feel when he was like he had been. I told him I wouldn't be living like that any more that it wasn't fair to myself and the kids. I told him that being a lone would be scary for me but not as scary as living in the life I was living. Being lost in his "maddness" was more than I could take and I wouldn't deal with it anymore. Not if he wasn't going to help himself. All very calm and matter of fact... I packed a bag for the kids, myself and I left.. I went to my sisters.. In my case. I had never left. I always stayed and put up with or fought everything that he put us through. And me staying calm and turning my back to him made him realize a lot of stuff he had put us through. He has made so many strides to fix things that he had made habits of before. I know that this might not help in your case. BUT I was at the point that I had had all I could take and I had nothing to loose....... And being with the man 18 years I knew how he ticked... So how does your DH tick???? Do you think leaving would help? Not forever in my case it only took an weekend and he was calling me wanting to know exactly what I was feeling and how he could fix it.. As with most bi polar's, Rob doesn't like to be alone, and he is a creature of habit. Me leaving broke his routine and gave him a reality slap of man she is serious. Do you think writing Dh a letter would work? Or taping him?? I always threatened to do that to Rob. Tape him in the middle of a bad day and make him watch it. Or do you think that would just push him over the edge? Is he on (upset) 24-7 or does he have down times to where you can sit down and talk to him? You know your DH best... How does the man tick, like I asked before??? Whatever you do you have to make sure you and the boys are safe.. So if you think that pushing him will cause major issues then there has to be another way around this..

And as far as what he is saying to your son's. I think that is a bunch of BS and I agree.. You better watch it because as those boys grow and get tired of it you are going to be in for a whole new set of problems. Rob has told me stories of stuff his dad (who is also Bi polar) would do to the boys when they were in their teens. Basically a bunch of I am the man of the house crap. No matter how big you are I am still your boss. Rob said he would fly off the handle and challenge them to physical fights, be right up in their faces. And he started out with the whole "you're a little B**tard" when they were young too. Just watch them..

By Dmom on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:14 am:

VOICE OF EXPERIENCE:

GET OUT!!!

GET YOUR KIDS OUT!!!

By Ginny~moderator on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 06:52 am:

What your husband is doing is abuse. As others point out above, especially Bobbie, mental/emotional abuse is harmful to your children. And there is always the risk that it will turn into physical abuse at any time.

If you can say or write to dh exactly what he is doing to you and your children, and that you will leave him if he doesn't get help to clean up his act, then by all means try. But don't expect any miracles. So far he has resisted any kind of help, counseling, or anything else, and will be very reluctant to change that attitude. For everyone's sake I hope he does, but I urge you to have a backup plan.

Though I am divorced (after 19 years of marriage and almost 22 years of "legal separation" (I am a slow learner sometimes)), I also don't recommend divorce. But sometimes in some marriages there comes a point where you have to protect yourself and your children. As much as you have a responsibility to your husband, you have a greater responsibility to your children and to the kind of adults they will become. They are helpless in this situation and you are the only person who can protect them.

One thing to think about - as your children get older, they may not only resent and possibly hate their father for his abuse of them, they may also resent and have bitter feelings towards you for not protecting them. Certainly what they witness and are subject to will shape the kinds of people they become and their ability to form relationships.

I hope you are able to find the catalyst that will make your dh sit up and listen, Cat. And you know we are here to listen and offer what help we can.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cat, Robin, Randy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

By Amecmom on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 09:55 am:

If he's anything like my father was when I was growing up, he won't listen when he's already angry, and probably won't listen even when he's calm. Even if he does "listen" there's no way he will be able to control himself when something does set off his hair trigger temper.

I think recording him will just put him in a rage, although it sounds like a good idea at first. You have to be ready to listen to yourself and ready to admit there's a problem.

Does he have any close friends who might be able to speak with him about his temper? Is he like this in all social situations, or just with the family?

Sometimes, advice or observations coming from a friend seem less like an attack than those coming from a spouse. Maybe you could engineer a situation when his good friend is over, and the friend could see it for himself and then speak to your husband about it. This way, you are out of it completely.

I don't know if it would be helpful in at least getting him to admit there is a problem. It certainly won't solve it, not without counseling and or meds.

I'm sorry you are going through this, and I hope you find a way to come to terms with it.

Have you discussed this behavior with your sons? Maybe if they realize he can't help what he says, they'll be less affected by it?

One thing that worked with my dad was to diffuse the situation with humor, or to bring up a touch subject as a "joke". I think he found this less threatening.
Ame

By Melissa on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:03 am:

I don't think you can talk to him. I can tell you from the point of view of your kids ( b/c you just described my dad) they can't ignore him, they are going to have issues about this all their lives. I have been to counseling and feel very happy that I was smart enough to do so before I got married b/c I am married to a man that is the exact oppiosite of that and my dd will never go though what my sis and I did. I will also tell you that I believe that it is a mom's job to protect their kids and I feel my mom did not protect us. This has had an effect on our relationship to this day. My dad was exactly as you descibed, he even wrote me a letter once, he wrote it when I was in 6th grade, I didn't see it till I was an adult and he was dead. Basically he said he knew he was mean, overly critical and didn't spend time or wasn't interested in my stuff and he yelled but that was just how he was, but he loved me. To me reading this as a parent myself, as I was grown and had dd when he died and my mom found this, if you know you are not doing the best for your child and you don't try to change that, that speaks volumes about your selfishness. I think you know in your heart how damaging this is to your kids and even though you say it doesn't bother you when he belittles you that is effecting you and them too. I say try writing a letter b/c it would be easier for you and say counselling is what will happen ( you would be kidding yourself if you think he will change b/c of a letter he will have to do some real work.)
I read a lot more than I post and I always think how much you advocate for your kids and how you are a really good mom so this is not intended to be harsh, but I lived it and I hate to see any other kid in this situation. good luck.

By Ginny~moderator on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:36 am:

Melissa, how generous of you to post about your personal experience. It is very kind and thoughtful of you to post about what is so obviously painful.

By Debbie on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:30 pm:

{{{{Oh Cat}}}} I am sure this is all your dh knows, especially since he grew up in a household like this. BUT, it just isn't right for him to yell, cuss and belittle you and the boys. Yes, we all loose are temper some times, but this is different. I know you love your boys very much and you want what is best for them. Deep down you have to know that this is effecting them and you. Unfortunately, if you decide to stay with dh the way he is, your boys will probably end up repeating this same cycle. I think Bobbie gave you some wonderful advice. Only you know your dh. Only you can decide what you must do. We can't make those decisions for you. We can just support you and give you our experiences.

My dh swore he would never go to counseling. Even when our relationship was miserable. I kept telling him we needed counseling, we needed to fix our problems, deal with our issues. Like you two, we always just swept them under the rug. Finally, I had enough and started packing to go to my parents. When he knew I was serious and I was taking the boys and leaving, he finally agreed to go. It did wonders for our marriage and taught us to communicate so we could work through our problems. We still have problems, but we can work through them now without everything becoming a major issue.

When I read your post, I would have sworn my neighbor wrote it. I think I posted to you about her before. He oldest ds is just like Robin and her dh sounds just like yours. I hate to say that she is now going through a divorce and working out custody issues. Her oldest ds is 13 and more and more he started acting like his father( who like your dh, had a father just like him) She couldn't stand the thought of her boys ending up just like him, so she finally filed for divorce. She is really struggling with it and going through so many emotions, like I am sure you are.

We are all here for you. Please email me (jjsoliz@sbcglobal. net) if want to talk. Also, my neighbor is great and I am sure she would love talking to you. If you want it, I can get her email address. It might make it easier to talk with someone that is going through the same thing.

By Dmom on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:33 pm:

I tried to post an anonymous and messed it up. So, this time I am going to post from myself. And I will not be grapic enough to require an anonymous post.

I grew up with an abusive parent and let me tell you, the best you can experience from that is to be "in recovery". Abusive parenting leaves long lasting effects.

Also, I noticed your name under Curves and that you haven't been in a while. That is step one of being under the authority of an abusive man, the things you do for yourself begin to fade away....

First of all, you can not approach a person who is determined to be angry without making them angry. Not gonna happen. If your husband decides to be angry, then that is his decision and you can not control his emotions. You can "sit him down" you can "record him" you can assure him that you are not "attacking him" but I am telling you, from experience, that no matter how you approach him, if he wants to respond in anger, he will. When you try to "set yourself up" to control his anger, you are just asking for trouble. You can not control another person. Only God can control other people and even then, God is a gentleman and God will not intervene unless your husband asks God to intervene. Not you asking God to intervene, your husband asking God to intervene.

I understand what you mean about "I can take it" but "I don't want my kids to take it". Sweetie, I am telling you, your kids are already "taking it" I tried to "protect" my siblings and my Mom from my Father and after my Mom finally divorced my Dad (after 20 years of a horrible marriage) and all the siblings grew up, I found out from my siblings that I hadn't protected them at all. They still saw it all, they still experienced it, rather it was me "taking it" or eventually them "taking it". I understand, I really do understand, because I have been there, that you think you are protecting your kids by being your husband's target. But sweetie, you are sacrifacing yourself to no good end. Because the kids see it anyway. I know this because I intentionally took my Dad's stuff to try to protect my siblings and then, as I said, my siblings grew up and told me they had been hurt anyway. My "protecting" them was just an illusion to me. They got hurt, anyway. You say you are ignoring it, but you are not, you have quit or are thinking about quitting Curves. You are venting in a chat room. You are considering leaving your husband. (pardon me a moment for being a little mean, but YIPPEE!!! GET OUT!!!)
You are not ignoring it. You are venting in a safe environment and then "stuffing" it by quitting your "me" time to devote more time to trying to control a situation that is beyond your control. I know I am being a little mean and a bit of a know it all but I swear, sweetie, I know what I am talking about, I have been there. I was the oldest child subjected to emotional abuse and I recognize you!!! Also, because of my previous experience, I am telling you very honestly that if ANYONE man, woman, child, or animal (:-) talked to my children the way you say your husband talks to your children I would be gone. You say your kids have learned to ignore yelling. That is not a good sign, sweetie.

What happens when your kids are adults and begin to try to form adult relationships and they have learned not to listen?? Do you really think you kids will make good spouses if you and your husband have trained them not to be good listeners?

Not-so-good-listeners are not-so-good-communicators, is that what you want your kids to be?

Hey, based on the way your husband communicates, GOD BLESS THE SILENT TREATMENT!!! Let him be quiet, enjoy the peace while it last.

Communication Problems....HMMMMM.....Let's pause and think about that one for a moment, shall we???

My Mom wrote my Dad letters. He tore them up in her face or burned them. One time, as a kid, I went into the bathroom and found a half-burned letter from my Mom to my Dad floating in the toilet. So much for writing letters.

There is no such thing as "just emotional" abuse. And believe me, I "flew at" my father a few times after I got old enough to try to fight back and he fought me physically as well. If you are raising boys, do you really think that they are going to "take it" once they are old enough to "fight back?" I am a girl and I tried to fight back!! What do you think a teen age boy is going to do???

Don't give your husband another chance. Don't go away for just a weekend. I am telling you the truth. (Wasn't it you who wrote "the truth hurts") GET OUT!!!! GET YOUR KIDS OUT!!! People have already been more seriously hurt than you will probably ever realize--denial plays a role--God would not give us denial if we didn't need it-Denial can help us survive horrible things. But the time for denial is over. Your kids are paying too high a price. As An Adult Child of an Emotionally Abusive Parent--I am telling you--GET OUT!!!

I know I sound bossy and judgemental, but I am willing to take that risk if it will help a child and a mom who I see on the same destructive path I was on.

If I am willing to take that big a risk on a board I have only been on for 2 days with a woman I don't even know, doesn't that tell you how serious this is???

Also, I am glad you can talk to your Mom, but don't you think she is probably worried out of her mind??? Wouldn't you rather talk to your best friend about other things besides the hurtful things your husband has done to you and to your kids????

Hey, one thing I learned about dealing with myself and my own issues (no, I am not perfect) is that "If I am not the problem, there is no solution". In other words if your husband thinks that he is not the problem, everyone else is, then he is very, very, far away from any type of solution.

Also, I noticed all of this is posted on a Saturday. Wouldn't you love to have something better to do on the weekends than play referee between your husband and your kids all weekend??

Honey, for once in your life (you sound like a perfectionist and an excellent problem-solver, I know because I am too) anyway, for once in your life, give in to temptation, let it go...throw him out!!! Your kids will be sad, but they will also be very relieved. I was sad when I was 16 and My Mom finally quit trying and threw my Dad out but all three of us kids were extremely relieved as well. Your kids will be sad, but the relief and the peace of the home will outweigh the sadness. Based on experience, I swear, I am telling you the truth. I know you are worried about your kids if your husband leaves, but we three kids were better off without the abusive parent in the home.

Even if he is bipolar (message in your head: "I have to stay with him, and take care of him, he's sick) it is still his responsibility to get diagnosed and take medicine. If your husband had cancer, and was offerred chemotherapy and radiation to conquer it and refused treatment, would the progression of his cancer by YOUR FAULT?? Of course not, mental illness is just like physical illness, the sick person still has to take responsibility and get treatment.

Sorry, sweetie, you are a dog trying to communicate with a cat. You can not approach a person with an anger problem without making them angry. You can not control another person's emotions. I know that if you could, you would pick your husband up, dust him off, and fix all his problems. But I must break your heart and tell you, really and truly, that it is not gonna happen.

Also, if you want to tape record him, go right ahead, but make a copy. There is an excellent chance that if you choose to stay in this relationship, one day you will need the tape to play to an attorney or a judge for evidence. Also, if you only have one tape, and it is evidence of what your husband doesn't want to see, he will just destroy the tape. So make sure to have a copy.

I hope your evidence will not be a "911 tape recording" of a major crisis in your family.
I hope you and your kids do not become a statistic.

In your case, I not only agree with divorce, I advocate and strongly recommend it.

I know I sound dramatic, probably judgemental, and like I have all the answers.And I definitely do not have all the answers. But, believe me, having lived in "the problem" with my father for 18 years, I definitely know the solution!!!

GET OUT!!

You can not approach a person who is determined to be angry without making them angry.

And if you sit him down while he is calm, and say, "Is there something I am doing that upsets you?" or "How can I help relieve some of your stress?" I watched my Mom do that for 20 years and all it did was make her a bigger target. Because with questions like that, you just invite him to take it out on you (again) No, there is nothing you are doing that upsets him, he would be upset anyway.And if he is bipolar and refuses medication, he is going to be upset for a long time. And no, there is nothing you can do to relieve his stress, if he is bipolar and refusing medication, he is choosing to be stressed and you can not control his choices. (yes,truth hurts)but this person did advise you that if your husband won't change, get out because your kids don't deserve this. And I apologize for shooting down well-meaning well-intentioned advice but I KNOW FOR A FACT IT DOESN'T WORK!! The only person who can help your husband is your husband.

If you confront him, he is going to feel attacked because that is all he has ever felt. You can not change his reactions. Telling a bipolar man in rage and mania without medication not to speak until you are done talking is like trying to quench an inferno with a watergun.

These ladies are telling you nicely to leave. Well, that's what I read in it.

I am not telling you nicely--I am spitting it out bluntly, GET OUT!!!

And don't get into that trap of "If you will....then I will..." and don't give it 24 hours, a week or a month and then go back. All of that is just being trapped in a yo-yo. My Mom got out, I know it can be done. It is hard, very hard, to get out, sometimes it can take years, but the solution is to get out.

My siblings and I adore our Mom. My Father is dead, He died of a sudden and massive heart attack at age 60. His anger and his refusal to see help, killed him. But my siblings and I have all three told our Mom that we adore her for her strength and courage to get out of a terrible situation. She had no education, no income and three dependent children, but she got out and she went to nursing school and got her R.N. and now she works with survivors of abuse at a medical facility here in Atlanta.

It was not an easy transistion. And it was emotionally painful. But she did it. And we three "adult children" are proud of her for doing it. And you can do it, too.

GET OUT!!!

By Dmom on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:35 pm:

P.S.

I just read your profile.

ROAR!!!!BABY!!!!ROAR!!!!

By Dmom on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:37 pm:

I tried to post an anonymous and messed it up. So, this time I am going to post from myself. And I will not be grapic enough to require an anonymous post.

I grew up with an abusive parent and let me tell you, the best you can experience from that is to be "in recovery". Abusive parenting leaves long lasting effects.

Also, I noticed your name under Curves and that you haven't been in a while. That is step one of being under the authority of an abusive man, the things you do for yourself begin to fade away....

First of all, you can not approach a person who is determined to be angry without making them angry. Not gonna happen. If your husband decides to be angry, then that is his decision and you can not control his emotions. You can "sit him down" you can "record him" you can assure him that you are not "attacking him" but I am telling you, from experience, that no matter how you approach him, if he wants to respond in anger, he will. When you try to "set yourself up" to control his anger, you are just asking for trouble. You can not control another person. Only God can control other people and even then, God is a gentleman and God will not intervene unless your husband asks God to intervene. Not you asking God to intervene, your husband asking God to intervene.

I understand what you mean about "I can take it" but "I don't want my kids to take it". Sweetie, I am telling you, your kids are already "taking it" I tried to "protect" my siblings and my Mom from my Father and after my Mom finally divorced my Dad (after 20 years of a horrible marriage) and all the siblings grew up, I found out from my siblings that I hadn't protected them at all. They still saw it all, they still experienced it, rather it was me "taking it" or eventually them "taking it". I understand, I really do understand, because I have been there, that you think you are protecting your kids by being your husband's target. But sweetie, you are sacrifacing yourself to no good end. Because the kids see it anyway. I know this because I intentionally took my Dad's stuff to try to protect my siblings and then, as I said, my siblings grew up and told me they had been hurt anyway. My "protecting" them was just an illusion to me. They got hurt, anyway. You say you are ignoring it, but you are not, you have quit or are thinking about quitting Curves. You are venting in a chat room. You are considering leaving your husband. (pardon me a moment for being a little mean, but YIPPEE!!! GET OUT!!!)
You are not ignoring it. You are venting in a safe environment and then "stuffing" it by quitting your "me" time to devote more time to trying to control a situation that is beyond your control. I know I am being a little mean and a bit of a know it all but I swear, sweetie, I know what I am talking about, I have been there. I was the oldest child subjected to emotional abuse and I recognize you!!! Also, because of my previous experience, I am telling you very honestly that if ANYONE man, woman, child, or animal (:-) talked to my children the way you say your husband talks to your children I would be gone. You say your kids have learned to ignore yelling. That is not a good sign, sweetie.

What happens when your kids are adults and begin to try to form adult relationships and they have learned not to listen?? Do you really think you kids will make good spouses if you and your husband have trained them not to be good listeners?

Not-so-good-listeners are not-so-good-communicators, is that what you want your kids to be?

Hey, based on the way your husband communicates, GOD BLESS THE SILENT TREATMENT!!! Let him be quiet, enjoy the peace while it last.

Communication Problems....HMMMMM.....Let's pause and think about that one for a moment, shall we???

My Mom wrote my Dad letters. He tore them up in her face or burned them. One time, as a kid, I went into the bathroom and found a half-burned letter from my Mom to my Dad floating in the toilet. So much for writing letters.

There is no such thing as "just emotional" abuse. And believe me, I "flew at" my father a few times after I got old enough to try to fight back and he fought me physically as well. If you are raising boys, do you really think that they are going to "take it" once they are old enough to "fight back?" I am a girl and I tried to fight back!! What do you think a teen age boy is going to do???

Don't give your husband another chance. Don't go away for just a weekend. I am telling you the truth. (Wasn't it you who wrote "the truth hurts") GET OUT!!!! GET YOUR KIDS OUT!!! People have already been more seriously hurt than you will probably ever realize--denial plays a role--God would not give us denial if we didn't need it-Denial can help us survive horrible things. But the time for denial is over. Your kids are paying too high a price. As An Adult Child of an Emotionally Abusive Parent--I am telling you--GET OUT!!!

I know I sound bossy and judgemental, but I am willing to take that risk if it will help a child and a mom who I see on the same destructive path I was on.

If I am willing to take that big a risk on a board I have only been on for 2 days with a woman I don't even know, doesn't that tell you how serious this is???

Also, I am glad you can talk to your Mom, but don't you think she is probably worried out of her mind??? Wouldn't you rather talk to your best friend about other things besides the hurtful things your husband has done to you and to your kids????

Hey, one thing I learned about dealing with myself and my own issues (no, I am not perfect) is that "If I am not the problem, there is no solution". In other words if your husband thinks that he is not the problem, everyone else is, then he is very, very, far away from any type of solution.

Also, I noticed all of this is posted on a Saturday. Wouldn't you love to have something better to do on the weekends than play referee between your husband and your kids all weekend??

Honey, for once in your life (you sound like a perfectionist and an excellent problem-solver, I know because I am too) anyway, for once in your life, give in to temptation, let it go...throw him out!!! Your kids will be sad, but they will also be very relieved. I was sad when I was 16 and My Mom finally quit trying and threw my Dad out but all three of us kids were extremely relieved as well. Your kids will be sad, but the relief and the peace of the home will outweigh the sadness. Based on experience, I swear, I am telling you the truth. I know you are worried about your kids if your husband leaves, but we three kids were better off without the abusive parent in the home.

Even if he is bipolar (message in your head: "I have to stay with him, and take care of him, he's sick) it is still his responsibility to get diagnosed and take medicine. If your husband had cancer, and was offerred chemotherapy and radiation to conquer it and refused treatment, would the progression of his cancer by YOUR FAULT?? Of course not, mental illness is just like physical illness, the sick person still has to take responsibility and get treatment.

Sorry, sweetie, you are a dog trying to communicate with a cat. You can not approach a person with an anger problem without making them angry. You can not control another person's emotions. I know that if you could, you would pick your husband up, dust him off, and fix all his problems. But I must break your heart and tell you, really and truly, that it is not gonna happen.

Also, if you want to tape record him, go right ahead, but make a copy. There is an excellent chance that if you choose to stay in this relationship, one day you will need the tape to play to an attorney or a judge for evidence. Also, if you only have one tape, and it is evidence of what your husband doesn't want to see, he will just destroy the tape. So make sure to have a copy.

I hope your evidence will not be a "911 tape recording" of a major crisis in your family.
I hope you and your kids do not become a statistic.

In your case, I not only agree with divorce, I advocate and strongly recommend it.

I know I sound dramatic, probably judgemental, and like I have all the answers.And I definitely do not have all the answers. But, believe me, having lived in "the problem" with my father for 18 years, I definitely know the solution!!!

GET OUT!!

You can not approach a person who is determined to be angry without making them angry.

And if you sit him down while he is calm, and say, "Is there something I am doing that upsets you?" or "How can I help relieve some of your stress?" I watched my Mom do that for 20 years and all it did was make her a bigger target. Because with questions like that, you just invite him to take it out on you (again) No, there is nothing you are doing that upsets him, he would be upset anyway.And if he is bipolar and refuses medication, he is going to be upset for a long time. And no, there is nothing you can do to relieve his stress, if he is bipolar and refusing medication, he is choosing to be stressed and you can not control his choices. (yes,truth hurts)but this person did advise you that if your husband won't change, get out because your kids don't deserve this. And I apologize for shooting down well-meaning well-intentioned advice but I KNOW FOR A FACT IT DOESN'T WORK!! The only person who can help your husband is your husband.

If you confront him, he is going to feel attacked because that is all he has ever felt. You can not change his reactions. Telling a bipolar man in rage and mania without medication not to speak until you are done talking is like trying to quench an inferno with a watergun.

These ladies are telling you nicely to leave. Well, that's what I read in it.

I am not telling you nicely--I am spitting it out bluntly, GET OUT!!!

And don't get into that trap of "If you will....then I will..." and don't give it 24 hours, a week or a month and then go back. All of that is just being trapped in a yo-yo. My Mom got out, I know it can be done. It is hard, very hard, to get out, sometimes it can take years, but the solution is to get out.

My siblings and I adore our Mom. My Father is dead, He died of a sudden and massive heart attack at age 60. His anger and his refusal to see help, killed him. But my siblings and I have all three told our Mom that we adore her for her strength and courage to get out of a terrible situation. She had no education, no income and three dependent children, but she got out and she went to nursing school and got her R.N. and now she works with survivors of abuse at a medical facility here in Atlanta.

It was not an easy transistion. And it was emotionally painful. But she did it. And we three "adult children" are proud of her for doing it. And you can do it, too.

GET OUT!!!

By Kate on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 04:00 pm:

I agree completely with Dmom. Your kids are getting hurt. No child deserves to EVER be spoken to that way. Your sons will become just like him if you keep this relationship going. And your sons may turn on YOU, too, as that's what they keep watching their father do. This is a huge crisis, and it's going to get worse if you don't get yourself and your sons OUT.

By Cat on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 05:03 pm:

First, I want to thank you all for responding. I'm not at all offended by anything anyone said. I came here asking for advise and opinions and that's what I got. I do not believe in divorce except for abuse or infidelity. I've been praying about my marriage for several years now, and I've always gotten the same answer from God--Stay right where you are. I can't believe that God would want my children in this environment, though. I'm still getting the message that we need to work on this, I'm just not knowing how. We've been married for over 12 years now. I'm not ready to walk away from that without a fight.

Dondi, have you been hiding in my closet??? You know me way to well for having just "met" a day or so ago. Yes, I am a perfectionist. Dh had an older brother that "took it" for him. My MIL still to this day doesn't admit there was ever a problem. I watch the way my FIL speaks to and treats her and I cringe. Yes, I think my kids would be relieved. I also think my youngest would be crushed. :( Dh threatened to leave about 5 or 6 months ago and Randy overheard (hard not to since he was in the next room with his door open). He was so upset. He's a very political child. If you ask Robin who he loves more, Mom or Dad he won't even hesitate and say, "Mom." Randy plays this little "I love you both the same" game. He's always been like that--the peace maker. *sigh* He won't turn out like dh--he'll turn into me and marry someone like dh. Robin will definately turn into dh if something doesn't change. Like I said--he's his clone. I know Robin would be relieved, though. After church this morning we went to Burger King and Robin asked who was coming tomorrow (daycare) and I said no one because it was a holiday. Then he asked if Dad would be home and he said, "Aw, I don't want Dad to be home. I don't like him." That's another thing I'm afraid of. If the marraige doesn't work, I'm afraid that dh would either decline visitation with the boys, or just take Randy OR visits would be absolutely miserable for the kids. I do want the kids to have a relationship with their father, but I want it to be a good one.

I have thought about the kids resenting me for not "protecting" them or getting them out of this situation. That hurts. :(

What makes my dh tick? Well, subtle hints don't work--that I know. If I wrote him a letter he would read it. I don't know where he'd go from there, though.

As far as my mom being worried about me, she knows I'd never let anything physically happen. Dh knows that, too. He knows for a fact that if he EVER laid a hand on me or one of the kids we'd be gone in a heartbeat. That was made very clear to him before we even got married.

I am a very strong person--I know that. It took me years to get that way, though. When I first met dh and we got married (two years later) I was very young (20 when we married) and very emotionally insecure and very immature. I used to let people walk all over me and use me. I stand up for myself now and I stand up for my kids. (That was one thing my mom did--she stood up for us, even when other people would walk all over her. She's getting better about that. :) ) I've grown so much in the past 12 years. I am not the same person he married (and he isn't the same man I married either). I used to let him make all the decisions. Where we'd go, what we'd eat, when we do things, how we'd spend our money, etc. He's always had this "streak", it just seems as the years have passed it's gotten worse. Nothing brings out fights between couples like kids and money.

I don't think I'm in denial. I know what our problems are, I'm just not ready to give up yet. If he threatened to leave I don't think I'd fight him over it, though. Heck, at this point I'd probably offer to pack his bags for him! lol Yes, I'm using humor in a stressful situation.

Thanx again for all the responses. I've said it before, but I'll say it again--You ladies are the best. :)

By Kay on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 05:31 pm:

Cat, I'm a true believer in listening to what God wants me to do.....but along with that belief comes a lifelong learning process of how to interpret what God is saying to us.

It seems to me that He is having you reach out for help - right here at Momsview is one example. Are you sure that He wants you and your children to endure this suffering? Only you can answer that, but I wish you and your family all the best.

By Texannie on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 05:46 pm:

You made the comment that you don't believe in divorce except for abuse or infidelity. I don't either. But, you are being abused and so are your kids, ya'll just may not have any visible broken bones or bruises.

By Sue3 on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 06:03 pm:

((((Cat))))

You have gotten a lot of good advise.I can`t think of any thing else to add to it.
My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family and know that we are here at
Moms veiw for you to vent any time.
I pray that you find an answer soon.
Sue

By Vbw1978 on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:20 pm:

HUGS to you & the boys !!!!
Everyone has said soo much already, I will pray that you can make it through this !

By Gammiejoan on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 09:57 pm:

Cat, I can't add anything to the excellent advice you have received here. I just want you to know that I'm thinking of you and praying that God will guide you in whatever decisions you make. If I've learned anything at all about you during the course of our contacts on Momsview, it has to be the knowledge that you are truly a strong woman who will do whatever is in the best interest of your family. It's not being selfish, though, to look out for your own interest too. I know that you realize that you can't be of any help to your family unless you keep yourself emotionally healthy. Just know that we all care!

By Dmom on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:27 am:

Hey.

A very, very kind woman just informed me that typing in all capitals is bad manners and is considered yelling.

I am so sorry, I really do apologize.

I am new at this, so if at any time, I "mess up" please let me know. I appreciate wisdom and experience, this is all new to me and I love it.

I asked the moderators if I could change my name from dmom to chatterbox because I like to post so much!

Thanks for listening to the "new girl". Ya'll are just great.

Cat, I left you a post on the Curves question, I would encourage you not to quit Curves. That's goood "mommy" time.

And I made another first time mistake, I posted a novel, not once, but twice, sorry.

Oh well, I always wanted to get my writing published! :-)

No, Cat, I am not in your closet, but I know the pattern, sweetie.

And it has gone on a lot longer than you or me.

Once upon a time, long ago, there lived a woman named Abigail. Now Abigail was married to a very wealthy but very cruel and foolish man named Nabal. Abigail was a beautiful and intelligent woman and the name "abigail" means beauty and intelligence to this day but her husband Nabal was a verbally abusive "turkey head".

Well, a man named David, who was handsome and pleasant and had a reputation of being a good man happened to work with some men who also worked for Nabal.

Anyway, the men began to "network" in their respective employment as men will do and since David, the good man, had been good to Nabal's workers, David asked Nabal to "return the favor" and help him and his workers celebrate with a little party.

Well, instead of "joining in" and bringing some "party stuff" and making some new friends and possibly some good business connections, Nabal responds in a verbally abusive way toward David and refuses to "join in".

Well, David got offended and said he was going to kill Nabal for offending him. (David had a bit of a temper himself).

One of Nabal's employees gets wind of this, and goes to Abigail, Nabal's wise and beautiful wife. The employee pleads with Abigail to intervene because Nabal is so verbally abusive that nobody could talk any sense into him and he refused all help offered to him. The employee is afraid that Nabal's verbal abuse is going to cause the collapse of the whole organization.

So, Abigail intervenes for Nabal and saves the family business and the employees from financial ruin and disgrace but because Nabal is so abusive, Abigail doesn't dare to tell him she intervened on his behalf.

While Abigail intervenes for Nabal and she is speaking with David, it becomes obvious the pressure she is under living with a verbally abusive man.

Eventually, because Nabal refuses to get help and change his ways, Nabal's wrongdoings come down on his own head. And the name Nabal means "fool" to this day.

And Abigail winds up marrying David, who is the CEO of a really great company with an incredible Boss!!

(I modernized that story a bit)

The point is, Abigail was in a verbally abusive relationship and God rescued her and gave her a better life.

I found that story in a really great Book that I read every night--you probably have a copy of it in your home.

Just something to think about. No pressure, I promise, but babe, this kind of stuff has been going on for a long time and God has some very definite ideas about how to handle abusive people who refuse to get help or change.

Abigail got out, God helped her get out, and while I absolutely, positively hope that your dh's wrongdoings don't come down on his own head, God can help you get out,too.

There are better ways to live.

By Tink on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 12:15 pm:

I love your "modernization" and think it definitely applies here. Cat, you have to do what your heart tells you is right but make sure it is really God talking and not your fear or pride. There is only a small amount of this that is in your control and you are choosing not to use your power to leave. This is your choice and no one else has to live with this man but you and your kids. Just make sure that you are really doing what is best for the people that don't have any power, your boys. I really don't think that the environment that you all are in is the best for them and I wonder if some short-term discomfort from leaving is worth the long-term heart ache that could develop if you see your son doing this in the future. I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said. Sorry that you are going through this and I am proud of you for the strength you are showing each day in being the best parent you can be while going through something like this.

By Anonymous on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:11 pm:

Cat, and all who have lived Cats family situation, I am living the same almost. No name calling to our child, but the anger issue is just as strong here in my house too.

I printed up an application for a job just yesterday. I can not go on living with such unpredictable anger and living in fear of a the next tantrum. Poor DD speaks of it often now so I know she is painfully aware of the troubles. She just turned 6.

I'm posting anon only so that my name does not appear in the title of the post itself. This Dana. My email is in my profile.

Would love to form a chat with only those who have experienced this for themselves. So many questions, fears, concerns, what if's and what now? No physical touching abuse has ever occured, only verbal and non human physical abuse (slammed doors, broken glass, etc)

TIA

By Colette on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 02:53 pm:

Good luck to all of you in this situation. Emotional abuse will have long term effects on your children - in how they deal with anger themselves, how they pick a partner in life and later how they interact with their own children. My dad was emotionally abusive, my mother left the day it turned physical. If he won't get help, then you need to make the right choice for your children. It's your job to protect them.

By Beth on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 03:05 pm:

This probably has been mentioned already in more ways then one. But my fear would be that one day these boys are going to start doing the same thing to you that there dad is doing. Or they may simply start talking to him that way. Which even though he might deserve it sometimes thats not I am sure how you want your kids to act. They are learning that this is okay and acceptable behavior because you are still there putting up with it.

I have a friend who is going to meet her son again after many years of seperation. Her case is different in the since that she was an alcoholic. But she lived with an abuser. Her son learned it and in turn abused her when he was a teenager. She had a daughter he was also hurting and she had to have him removed from the home when he was 16. There of course was a lot of anger and bitterness on both sides. After all these years they are finally going to reconcile on Fathers Day. My friend is flying to meet him. I know that this is an extreme case and there was other circumstances involved. But my point was our children learn from us all of the time. I know that you are teaching them the best you can. But they still see it everyday.
This just obviously jmo but I don't think you would be going against what you feel that god is asking you to do. I mean if you or you husband leave it does not mean that its over final. It could just be the wake up call he needs to work on things. I guess what I am really trying to say is I would really search you soul. I just have a hard time believing that it would be gods will for you or your children to be abused like this. Which is what it is. Good luck

By Dmom on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 08:57 pm:

Tink-you are so kind!!

What can I say that I haven't already said?

If someone wants to start a thread, I am a survivor and an overcomer in recovery from a hard situation and My Mom got out and made a life for herself.

I will be glad to post (not as long, I promise) on a thread regarding getting out. I have lived it, I have survived it and my Mom has overcome it. It is very, very, hard but it can be done.

By Conni on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 09:29 pm:

Cat--email me would ya!?

Thanks.

By Cat on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 08:11 am:

Conni, check your mail.

By Conni on Tuesday, June 1, 2004 - 11:09 am:

I just emailed you Cat! :)

By Colette on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 12:58 pm:

Hope you are doing ok Cat.

By Emily7 on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 03:27 pm:

bump

By Cat on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 04:42 pm:

I'm okay. He's actually been okay the past couple days--just a couple small outbursts. I've been researching online trying to find some techniques on how to approach him without creating too much conflict. Kind of mini-online-therapy. :) I've found a couple good sites that tell how to have a 'fair fight' and hopefully they'll help. He has class tonight and I have a bbq tomorrow night that he'll probably go to with me (it's a church board function at the pastor's house, and he gets along well with my pastor) so hopefully we'll find some time this weekend to talk. Something has to change. It's not fair to the kids to live like this (or to me). Thanx for thinking of me. :)

By Dmom on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 05:39 pm:

glad you are okay

By Emily7 on Thursday, June 3, 2004 - 06:47 pm:

I am glad that things are better this week. Please keep us updated on how everthing is going! I will say a prayer that you are able to have that talk & that it goes really good.

By Bobbie~moderatr on Friday, June 4, 2004 - 12:31 am:

Cat, I believe in you... And we both know that when there is a will there is a way. Boy if we only knew... Be thinking of you....

By Mara on Friday, June 4, 2004 - 10:47 am:

Cat, let me know if you find something that works for your dh. When I read your first post I was in shock. It sounded like I wrote it. My dh is very mentally abusive toward me and our boys. His father was just like this also when my dh was growing up. My dh will also yell and cuss at me and the boys. It breaks my heart. We have discussed it many times. I've offered to take him to see our doctor but he refuses. The thing is many times after his outbursts he will tell me that he is turning out to be just like his dad and he doesn't want his kids to hate him. He realizes what he is doing is wrong, but he doesn't seem to notice until AFTER the screaming. He has cried after acting out and will hate himself for it, but he still continues to do it. Makes no sence, it's like he can't help himself. I love him dearly. He tells me that he loves me everyday. He tells me that he is lucky to have our family. I've told him that addressing a problem with him is like walking on egg shells. I never know how he is going to react. Our boys love their dad, but they don't really like him. I don't want my kids turning out with his temper. He has NEVER hit us, or even raised his hand to hit us. But, his words hurt us still.
Some days he will be fine, other days not. Lots of times he blames it on being tired from a hard day at work, or a bad day at work, or having a headache, or saying that I nag him, or I don't agree with his way of disipline. Well, his form of disipline is to yell and not hear the boys side, just yell at them and send them to their rooms crying. I like to tell them calmly why they are in trouble and explain what they should have done differently, and then tell them you are going to your room, or this toy is being taken away for X amount of time. He thinks I'm too easy on them. I'm not saying that I don't yell, because I do. But I don't cuss at them, and if I feel that I've yelled too much, I will later appologize for my behavior, and tell the kids that mommy is sorry, I did'nt mean to yell so much. He won't appologise unless I tell him to. I'm also not ready to give up on our marrige. We've been married for almost 9 years. I'm 31 he will be 30 this month.
Like I said again, if you find a site that is helpfull let me know.

By Anonymous on Friday, June 4, 2004 - 03:53 pm:

Cat, email me so I have your email address. My email is in my profile. This is D a n a, again, posting anon so my name doesnt appear in the thread.

By Cat on Friday, June 4, 2004 - 04:24 pm:

Mara, I'm sorry you're going through something similar. I'm not saying I never yell at my boys either, but when I do "lose it" I apoligize and we talk about what we all could have done differenty. Dh won't apoligize to the boys (he rarely apoligizes to me) because he thinks that shows weakness as a father. Duh. Good luck and if I find something, I'll share. :)

Anon, check your mail. :)

By Pamt on Sunday, June 6, 2004 - 06:42 pm:

Cat, I have been out of town and didn't see this earlier, but I did want to respond. This is a tough issue, as you well know. I can understand you hating being in this situation, yet not being *released* from it by God. I have 2 friends who have been in similar situations with adultery where they stuck it out and fought so hard for their marriages, which both ended up in divorce after much prayer, counseling, etc. Even though your are confident that your DH won't go to counseling, I really think you should go on your own. At the very least go to your pastor who will have some training in counseling and can advise you from a more objective POV. If your DH rages at you going to counseling, then maybe that is your litmus test from God. God wants you in a stable and loving relationship and if your DH is opposing even YOU going to counseling to improve things on your end, then that is a huge problem. Of course, I am not the Holy Spirit--and don't want to be--but this is a case to ask God to write the answers on the wall for you. It's so hard because I KNOW that it is not God's will for you and your precious boys to be subjected to such horrible emotional/verbal abuse. However, it very well may be part of God's plan for you to fight for your marriage. There may need to be a time of separation though. I strongly urge you to get counseling in the interim.

Another thought...maybe before you counsel with the pastor you could just let him know that you and dh are having some serious problems, without elaborating. You said your DH gets along with your pastor. Well, ask the pastor to ask your Dh out to lunch, for coffee, golfing, etc. and try to start a discussion with him. Sometimes a lot of "counseling" can get done in an informal setting where your DH doesn't feel like he's bearing his soul lying on a couch. Studies have also shown that men open up more if they have something to occupy their hands, like golf or basketball. I know my DH does a fair amount of counseling with belligerent youth who don't want to come to counseling while at the coffeeshop or shooting hoops.

I wanted to add one final note of personal experience. My dad never had huge anger issues (lost his temper once in a great while), but he and my mom had horrible communication skills. They would get mad at each other about something stupid, wouldn't talk to each other for several days, then suddenly everything would be *fine* and life went on as usual. The thing is that they NEVER resolved their issues and tension in the house would be thick. When my DH and I were in pre-marital counseling and discussing our family backgrounds the pastor asked me if I had stomach problems. I thought that was very odd, but yes, I did have horrible stomach problems through most of highschool and college. He said his wife came from a similar background as mine and she had stomach problems...that's why he asked. They disappeared the day she got married and was no longer under her parent's authority. Same thing happened to me. The moral is...I was being horrible affected physically by my parents' issues and didn't even know it, even as a 22 year old who was out from under my parents' roof. If their pouting and silent treatment affected me so badly as an adult, that coupled with the hurled insults is really hurting the hearts and psyche of your little boys. Praying for you all---for strength, wisdom, encouragement, safety, and peace.

By Cat on Monday, June 7, 2004 - 09:06 am:

Thanx for responding, Pam. There are major communication problems between us. He tend to get angry and I tend to get emotional. Doesn't mix well! lol I do plan to talk to my pastor sometime soon. He's heading up a youth ministry camp this week and youth camp is next week so he's going to be pretty busy for the next couple weeks. There are a couple other people I can talk to (also pastors--one is a good friend and another attends our church--he's not pastoring right now, but has talked about doing counseling). Dh is so negative so much of the time, it really is draining. We didn't get a chance to talk this weekend (there really wasn't a "good" time). I may end up writing that letter after all. I do wonder how much of Robin's attitude comes from his father. He can be pretty reasonable with me and I can usually talk to him (or talk him "down"). Dh usually just pushes him, sometimes over the edge. He's the eternal pessimist and I'm the optimist. Thank you for your prayers. :)

By Cheekymama on Tuesday, June 8, 2004 - 04:15 am:

I don't really have any advice, but it reminded me of something my mom told me:

When I was a kid, my mom "broke up" with a friend of hers because her friend was such an angry, nasty person all the time. She constantly screamed at her kids and husband -- they cowered around her -- and was just generally a miserable person to be around. So one day my mom told her as nicely as possible that she just couldn't be friends with her anymore and explained why. My mom's "friend" turned around and screamed at her husband, "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME I WAS A •••••?!?!?!" Gee... hmmm... that IS a real mystery, isn't it? LOL!


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