Baptism and Children
Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): Baptism and Children
I figured I'd better put this on the debate board.
Do you think that it's ok for a church to refuse to baptise a child because the family is not a member of the church or do you think that baptism should be available regardless of membership status? What if the family in question are long time regular attenders (they attend every Sunday and also attend bible study classes during the week and have for over a year), but for personal reasons do not want to become members by joining the church, but the child in question is old enough to understand what he/she is doing and wants to be baptised but can't because his/her parents are not actual members of the church?
The pastor of the church in question gave the reason for refusal as 'when the child is baptised the church members are asked to take on a responsibility for that child and it's not fair to ask them to do that for a non-member'. So does that mean that baptism is a 'members only' event? BTW, this is not my family, but it could be in the near future because we are attenders and not members of our church as well and have two children who have begun to inquire about baptism. I'm interested in your opinions and what your church believes.
"do you think that baptism should be available regardless of membership status?" Yes
"So does that mean that baptism is a 'members only' event?" Um, no...
What denomination are we talking about??? Some times that makes a difference.. There are different rules for different groups...
But in my church.. you can't become a member with out a baptism (not that you have to have one done by our church, but you have to be baptized) and whether your parents are members or not has no prevalence on your personal walk.. Being a child of members doesn't make you a member.. and having parents that aren't members doesn't mean you can't become one yourself. You are seen as a separate "body" when it comes to your walk.. A part of your parents, of course but not held under the their convictions. You have to make those convictions yourself.. Baptism is a personal choice and there are no limitations on who can be baptized with in my congregation..
Um.. Could he be trying to force the hand of the parents to commit to a membership?? Are the membership numbers in your congregation low??
I take that back, there are limitation.. It has to be by request and it has to be done with knowledge of what it means. Meaning they won't baptize a 4 year old because he wants to be "dunked".... But a child that can tell you why they want to and what they feel it means can be baptized irregardless of their parents status with in the church.. Many of our kids have parents that claim to not even be christians let alone attend a church.. I guess they would surly fall under the can't be baptized with out membership rules of your church..
Are you sure you are getting the whole story??
This is a Presbyterian church that my family used to attend, but left because we didn't feel that it was the right church for us. The family I wrote about are good friends of ours that we've known for some time and I'm fairly certain, knowing them as we do, that what I was told was what happened. I was told that the pastor was very kind and gentle in the way he told them, but also very firm on the matter. The church is not a mega church, but nice sized so I don't think that membership numbers were the issue. What I understand is that the church will not baptise unless the person is a member because the church members are asked a series of questions and "take on" some sort of responsibility although I don't think that the members actually do anything for the child being baptised other than answer the questions in unison.
I was curious if this was the practice of most churches or just a few and what others thought about it. IMO you should be able to be baptised or have a child baptised whether you are a member or not. I personally do not think that the lack of a church membership should disqualify someone from baptism. Dh and I were both baptised years ago at churches where we were members so I have not had any experience with this personally although the issue is going to be coming up really soon since we are not members of the church we currently attend (it is a Christian church) and do not plan to become members any time soon and our dks have been asking questions about baptism.
My first two children were baptized in the church that Dh and I were married in. We had become members shortly before we were married, but it helped that my mother had been a member of the church for over 25 years and was on the church council.
My last three children were baptized in a church that I wasn't a member of. It is a long story, but the short version is that I came to know the pastor during my mother's illness and her death. When it was time to baptize my third child, I asked him to do it and he did. I didn't attend that church often after that and was unsure if he would baptize my 4th child, but he said he would do it gladly. When my fifth child came along, I hadn't been in church for a few years and wondered if he would even remember me. I went in to see him and asked him if he would baptize my baby and we set the date that day. Both churches are Lutheran.
I'm not having anymore babies, but I have a feeling that if I started attending that church again and the subject came up again, he would do it.
I don't know what the rules are for the Presbyterian Church, and I will definitely research that, but I think it is absolutely appalling. I know the Roman Catholic Church will baptise any child, whether the parents are Catholic or not, and I think whether or not the parents are even Christian. Baptism is not a matter of church membership, imo, but rather signifies a relationship with God, and for a pastor to deny baptism to a child of the age of reason (I am assuming this is the case) because the parents are not members says something about that church's and that pastor's understanding of what baptism means - and imo it is nothing good. I will quote "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
Ditto Ginny. No child brought for baptism in the Roman Catholic church is refused. Baptism does not mean becoming a member of a partiular sect of Christianity, it means becoming part of God's family.
No church should deny baptism because the family is not a "card carrying member". What exactly does "membership" mean, anyway? It sounds as if they are active members of the church being that they attend services and participate in classes.
Does it have something to do with donations? Are you required to donate a set amount if you are a member?
It just does not make sense to me.
Any church that behaves in this fashion is not one that I'd want my child attending, let alone becoming a member of ...
Ame
Okay, according to what I am finding...
"Presbyterians do not believe in baptismal regeneration or that baptism in any sense saves. Presbyterians and Reformed Christians believe that baptism is a sign to be given to those who are part of the covenant of grace. A person is not part of the covenant because of baptism; baptism is a sign given to those who are part of the covenant. Those who are part of the covenant are not necessarily saved; rather, children are brought up in the covenant so that they might be raised in the context of the family of believers, so that the church may provide the child with a “climate of plausibility” that would make the Christian faith seem real and vibrant and true. Baptism is administered in anticipation of that time when they will come to faith and receive the forgiveness of their sins and be normal, communing members of Christ’s church."
"Baptism is the sign and seal of incorporation into Christ. Baptism is received once and signifies the beginning of life in Christ. It is the same sacrament whether administered to infants, children or adults. The sacrament of Baptism is administered on request. When a child is presented for Baptism, ordinarily the parents or those rightly exercising parental responsibility are an active member of the congregation."
Still reading..
I am Baptist and there are frequently people baptized who aren't members of the church. You must be baptized (by immersion) to become a member of the church, but you don't have to be a member to be baptized. It is, after all, in our denomination, called "believer's baptism" meaning that you have to have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. (We do not believe nor accept infant baptism--the child has to be old enough to have made a decision for her/himself). So, basically I think that church is wrong for the way it is handling things, although I don't know the total Presbyterian doctrine on baptism and there are different types of Presbyterian churches (PCA and USA come to mind).
However, on the flip side, and being the wife of a minister, I will tell you that it is frustrating to have "pew sitters" versus involved church members. (And members can be pew sitters too). But the church is a body and it needs all of its parts to function. For people just attending church they are just taking and not investing by teaching SS, being an usher, working the sound, singing in choir, etc. Baptism indicates a desire to be a follower of Christ and part of that would be to be an active member of a local church...they do go hand in hand, although certainly membership is not, nor should be, a requirement for baptism. We do occasionally have youth who want to be baptized and don't want to join the church because their parents go elsewhere. That makes sense to me and it does with a child as well. However if an adult feels connected enough with a church to want to be baptized by them (or have their child baptized) I don't understand why they don't want to become members. If there is some big problem, then why do they attend the church anyway? (Just wanted to throw a little devil's advocate in there. )
Ame, that one is easier to find..
Membership in the Presbyterian Church is open to all persons who believe in Jesus Christ and place their trust in him as Lord and Savior. A person becomes a member of a Presbyterian congregation in one of three ways. For the person who has never before made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ, one becomes a member by professing his or her faith. If that person was not baptized previously, baptism takes place at the time of one’s profession of faith. Those who have previously professed their faith may join in one of two ways: By reaffirmation of faith, or by transfer of church letter.
(you have to take classes according to the sites I have read so far)
New Members Class are offered several times throughout the year. While everyone is encouraged to take this course, one may join the church either before or after attending this series of classes.
Still reading...
Presbyterian Baptism Beliefs
The Bible declares that God claimed humanity as God's own "before the foundation of the world." (Ephesians 1:4)
Both believers and their children are included in God's covenant love. Children of believers are to be baptized without undue delay, but without undue haste. Baptism, whether administered to those who profess their faith or to those presented for Baptism as children, is one and the same Sacrament. The Baptism of children witnesses to the truth that God's love claims people before they are able to respond in faith. (Book of Order W-2.3008)
Baptism, therefore, usually occurs during infancy, though a person may be baptized at any age. Parents bring their baby to church, where they publicly declare their desire that he or she be baptized. When an infant or child is baptized the church commits itself to nurture the child in faith. When adults are baptized they make a public profession of faith.
Baptism distinguishes children of those who believe in God's redemptive power from children of nonbelievers. The water that is used symbolizes three accounts from the Bible's Old Testament: the waters of creation, the flood described in the story of Noah, and the Hebrews' escape from slavery in Egypt by crossing the Red Sea. All three stories link humanity to God's goodness through water.
Baptism signifies
The faithfulness of God,
The washing away of sin,
Rebirth,
Putting on the fresh garment of Christ,
Being sealed by God's Spirit,
Adoption into the covenant family of the Church,
Resurrection and illumination in Christ.
(Book of Order W-2.3004)
Unlike some denominations, Presbyterians do not require a person to be entirely immersed in water during baptism. Baptism is received only once. Its effect is not tied to the moment when it is administered, for it signifies the beginning of life in Christ, not its completion. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) believes that persons of other denominations are part of one body of Christian believers; therefore, it recognizes and accepts baptisms by other Christian churches.
Baptism is almost always administered as part of a worship service. In the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), baptism must be authorized by the session of a particular congregation and performed by a minister.
Baptism indicates a desire to be a follower of Christ and part of that would be to be an active member of a local church.
Church attendance is not indicative of someone's beliefs or desires. I asked to be baptized when I was 15 years old because I wanted to proclaim my belief in God, not because I wanted to become more active in the church. It was very personal to me and it was very important to me to have my children baptized, too.
However if an adult feels connected enough with a church to want to be baptized by them (or have their child baptized) I don't understand why they don't want to become members.
I can only speak for myself, but I didn't feel the connection to the church, my connection was with my God and the church was the middleman, so to speak. The time after my mother's death was one where I wanted to feel a closer connection to God (and that was more because I was angry with Him) and attended church more often, but realized that becoming more active in the church wasn't going to give me the answers I needed. (Only time did that.) I had the opportunity to become a member, but that wasn't what I was looking for at the time, so I didn't pursue it. Still, as I said before, having my children baptized was extremely important to me regardless of what their future religious beliefs are or how active they become in the church. I guess that also makes me a "pew sitter"...that's okay, I've been called worse. 
Okay, from what I am reading... If I am getting this right.. More or less, until a child is old enough to be able to make a confession of ones own faith the child goes through baptism with the parents accepting the responsibilities which baptism asks of us. Basically they are in charge of guiding the child in their walk.. I have found on several sites (by the way, the PCA and USA and APC and ARP and EAPC just name a few listed the same information) that the church requires that at least one of the parents be a full communing church member at the time of the baptism to be able to give consent and take on the responsibilities of spiritual director of the child.
Okay all that said... I can't find what age they feel child can give a confession of faith and recieve baptism with out their parents presenting them.. But I did find that after baptism a child is considerd a Non-communing member.
"The Congregation shall consist of communing and non-communing members, and adherents.
Communing members are those who have received Christian baptism and have been received by the Session through confession of faith or the presentation of a satisfactory certificate of transfer of membership from another evangelical church, and who make faithful use of the means of grace, especially the hearing of the Word
and the use of the Lord’s Supper.
Non-communing members are children of believers who have been baptised, and through the covenant and right of birth, are entitled to the pastoral oversight, instruction, and government of the church, with a view of their embracing Christ and
thus possessing personally all benefits of the covenant.
Adherents are those who participate in the life, work, and worship of the church, but are not members."
Sunny, please hear what I am saying. Keep in mind I am of the you-shouldn't-have-to-be-a-member-to-be-baptized camp . I also agree that baptism is TOTALLY about belief in God and not church membership. Where our differences lie, to the best of my understanding, is that it seems to me that wanting to give back and be invested in a fellowship of people with similar beliefs "generally" follows. Churches are run only by volunteer effort that comes from the membership and truly the Christian life is richer when service is involved (you know, "doers of the word, not just hearers of the word").
You're absolutely right that becoming a member of church won't give you the answers you need. Only God can do that. But, by the same token, the church doesn't need to be the "middleman"--God will meet you wherever you are.
And we all have seasons of pew-sitting...nothing wrong with that. But, usually at some point, growing believers want to start becoming more invested in the body of believers.
Sunny, I agree with you.. That membership has nothing to do with baptism.. But most see it as a sign to the congregation that you too are walking the Christian life with them.. It is an out ward showing of faith.. And that is why most denominations require that you be baptised before you can become a member.. Some denominations require that you be rebaptised if you are requesting membership into their church from an outside denomination..
"Pew sitting". LOL Pam... Non members go to church to hear the Word... That is why they are sitting in your DH's pews... Most likely are needing/wanting fed but not wanting to be further committed. Stigmas of church are so strong in this day and age.. there are so many positives (being fed, for example) and a negative (leave judged, as a nother) being thrown around.. We as a generation were raised being told to ask questions, question everything and the church took a while to catch up because there are many that grew up being told not to question the church elders, not to question the pastor not to question the Bible. **But why? because the Bible says so. But where? I don't know where I just know it does.** kind of banter So many are so confused and searching.. So they either just quit attending as adults or they refuse to commit out of fear of not having all the details of the commitment and they become professional "pew sitters".. It is getting past those negatives that is hurting the church as a whole and keeping our numbers down... Our primary focus is Youth because we feel that children are our most precious treasure. Through the youth we are touching multiple generations..
"Let the children come to me and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 19:14
I have to say that denying a child (assuming age of reason) a baptism because their parents are not members seems very wrong. I'm not a member of a church, nor was I ever baptized (I was raised Methodist), but if my children wanted to be, I wouldn't deny them the opportunity. A church using a parents status to deny the child would only serve to discourage the child, and one would think that they would want to do exactly the opposite. Interestingly, I had this discussion with a close friend, about how I wanted my children to learn about the Christian faith, and be entitled to make their own decisions. I was given that opportunity, and feel they should be as well.
Pam, I don't know if my post made you think to write what you did or if you would have written it anyway, but I did want to give another perspective (granted, it's only my view) and explain myself a bit. Perhaps it's because I'm not as invested in a particular church that I feel the way I do, but some aspects of the churches I've attended (particularly some of the politicking I've seen) has skewed my views. You'd think that having had mother who was very involved in two churches would have spilled over onto her children! But, it's never as simple as that. Perhaps one day I will find the church that's the right fit for me and my views will change again!
Crys, I agree on the "deny the child would only serve to discourage the child" point, I see this every day... A lot of churches are so focused on adult memberships that many of our kids come to us after being turned away from other churches because the parents refused to attend.. the we aren't baby sitters mentality..
We have one girl that came to us that was told by an elder of a prior church that if her mom couldn't buy new shoes and a couple of dresses for her to wear to church she couldn't return.. Say what??? this girl is well kept, but her mom is poor.. Who in their right mind would tell a child that lives in poverty that unless she can come up with proper shoes and dresses she can't come into Gods house.. She came to youth group with one of our regulars, but wouldn't attend church and one day I asked her why she wasn't attending church and she starts crying and tells me that she can't come dressed right... Huh??
Children connect their worthiness on the acceptance of the congregation/elders.. And for them to deny those kids... I would be looking for a new church also..
Sunny, your mom was a different generation..
My gradfather was born into a church, baptized in that church, my grandmother married into that church and they had three children born into that church, baptized into that church. They had the funerals of his grandparents, parents and a lot of friends in that church, weddings and so on and at 72 my grandfather finally left the church and started looking for a new church.. He had been raised not to leave and he tried for so long to follow the majority in their wants but he just couldn't be a part of it any more.. The politicking was one of the many reasons for them leaving... That and they started building on to the church by leaps and bounds even though they didn't have the congregation to fill the space or the money to pay for it..
I hate to say it - and I may get trounced for it - but there is too much "business" in church. Too may people looking out for donations, looking for the financial bottom line, rather than the spiritual summit. If I have to sit through one more "support appeal" I'll scream.
I thing anyone who could tell a child not to come to church until she was better dressed has already lost his soul and has no place being there. How horrible! I will pray for him.
Ame
Sunny, your post did make me write what I wrote (how I wish this site had the "quote" feature like every other forum), because I was responding to your post responding to mine. I do totally get what you are saying. As you may know, we are leaving LA is just a few weeks to go start a church from scratch in WI. The people we are hoping to reach are 20-40 somethings who aren't fans of organized religion, who aren't church attenders or members, and basically just people who are suspicious or leery or who have been "burnt" by the church in the past. Our church will be very different than most "traditional" churches . While we will adhere to basic Baptist doctrine, we hope our church will be a safe place to ask questions and struggle together on a faith journey. So, I promise I get where you are and our church would probably be a great fit for you, but we would still slowly encourage membership as part of that faith journey. Does that make a little sense? Not picking on you, I promise.
And Bobbie, about the clothes...UGH!
Ame, at one time I shared your dismay about the church always raising money, until I finally did some thinking about it. Fact is, running a church takes money, unless one has a "home church" system, that is, meetings for worship are held in the members' homes and there is no pastor or at least no paid pastor. A pastor has to be paid, and in fairness should be paid a "living wage", and in fairness medical insurance and a retirement benefit should be paid. Most major denominations have health insurance programs (usually with fairly high deductibles) and retirement programs the individual churches pay into - and they are not generous. Roofs need repairing, heat and electric bills need paying, walls need painting, unless the members do all the janitorial work that must be paid for, and so on.
If the membership is large *and* generous, or if there is a large endowment from the gifts of earlier generous members, then the only major fundraising that needs doing is the annual pledge program (people pledging specific amounts of gifts to the church for the coming year for the operating budget) and special event fundraisers for things like, for example, Katrina aid or other special charities.
The reverse of that is my church. We inherited a very large, beautiful building, which was built in earlier times when the congregation had many wealthy members who paid for specific things like our bell tower, gymnasium, or our separate small chapel. It's also an old building, parts of it being over 125 years to 150 years old. It needs a lot of maintenance, and is expensive to heat. Our present congregation is smaller and, while very generous, we don't have any wealthy members. And we struggle to keep the roofs repaired and the heating system working and salaries paid. Our magnificant organ was the gift of a former member many years ago, and costs a bundle to maintain and periodically refurbish.
At the same time, we do a lot of service in and for the community - an afterschool program serving about 200-225 students 9th and 10th grade students from the high school across the street, staffed mostly by volunteers (my church is in Germantown, a low-income, primarily African-American community). Almost all of the kids in the after-school program do much better in school than the average kid in that school. We provide free meeting space for several AA chapters and many, many community programs (which means paying a custodian to be in the building during the meeting to open and lock up the building and deal with any problems). We provide space for special fund-raising programs (speakers, musical events) for local non-profit organizations serving the community. We commit part of our annual budget to gifts to local community groups and hold special Easter and Christmas offerings that raise on an average of $10,000 each to fund local service programs. And so on - all of which takes money. Over my years of being actively involved in my congregation and the workings of the congregation, I've come to have a different view of the annual pledge drive and occasional "capital fund drives" (for things like really major organ repair, heating system renovation, installing an elevator and ramps to make our building handicap-accessible). It takes money to run my household, and it takes money to run a church.
None of which, of course, has anything to do with baptism and the turning away of the young person who wanted to be baptised. I did find a site which says: "Baptism is almost always administered as part of a worship service. In the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), baptism must be authorized by the session of a particular congregation and performed by a minister." Presbyterian That would seem to indicate that the governing body of the local church (session) and the minister/pastor more or less make the rules as long as those rules don't conflict with the national body's rules. So it seems a particular congregation is within its rights to demand that one or both parents be members of the congregation (which means being taken in formally as members). I don't know what else membership entails beyond making a formal declaration in front of the congregation as part of whatever ceremony or ritual that particular church uses, but I'm reasonably confident that it doesn't require a promise to be part of any volunteer work in the congregation or a promise of monetary support (though both are hoped for, I'm sure). I still feel that denying baptism to a child of the age of reason because of the membership status of the parents is wrong and question the theological thinking that led to that decision. Yes, the congregation promises to nurture the person being baptised in the Christian faith and in the church - we do that in my church, too - but that still doesn't justify the denial. Baptism, in my thinking, is not a commitment to a particular congregation or denomination, but rather a commitment to God and to the "universal church" (if there is such a thing), and I think this congregation has its priorities skewed.
As for the child being told not to come to church without better clothes, that was a sinful thing to do. It was the action of one member, not the church, but nonetheless sinful, ungenerous, unkind, and not at all WWJD. I would hope that in my church (and most churches I know) someone would bring this child's plight to the church's women's organization in or the pastor, and arrangements would be made to take positive steps to make the child welcome, provide some mentoring, and some help with clothing and other needs in a way that helps the child and her family to keep their dignity. That would be the Christian thing to do.
I agree, Ginny, that part of running a large church is business. That is inescapable. As one who has been a church employee, I know that. However, I don't believe that the proper forum for fundraising is during the mass (speaking in RC terms). I also don't hold with having to "buy" your membership with a set pledge.
There is a need to raise money, but it has lately been getting in the way of the spiritual mission of the church.
A little OT, but the man's comment to the little girl got me thinking of the whole money aspect of church.
What your church is doing sounds wonderful and you should be quite proud of its accomplishments. And yes, those things don't happen without funds - just that there is a proper time to fundraise and a proper time to raise the soul.
As far as Baptism, I feel very sorry for this family and this child.
Pam, your mission sounds exciting and wonderful!
Ame
I'm Southern Baptist and our pastor baptizes anybody that confesses beliefs and wants to share it as a public declaration of his/her beliefs regardless of membership or family involvement. It's an individual thing. I know a 5 yo little girl who wanted to be baptized and our pastor wanted to put it off for a little while until she goes thru a new believer's children's class b/c he wasn't sure that she understood what the whole thing was about. Her mom is a member. And I know of another little girl age 6, that he baptized right off b/c she just bubbled love of the Lord. She came to church with a neighbor.
But I want to add something else to this that I don't understand and added alot of anxiety for me years ago. When dh and I got married, we wanted a pastor to marry us in a church. From so many churches the answer I received was, if you aren't a member here and/or you aren't a Christian, the pastor wouldn't marry us and/or we couldn't rent the church. Finally found a friend's pastor who would marry us in a wedding chapel. And we eventually did become Christians about 7 years later. I talked to our pastor about it a couple of years ago. He told me some mumble jumble I don't remember as to why so many won't allow or do weddings for nonmembers or nonChristians. But what I do remember is that he said that anyone could rent our church for a wedding. And he would marry anyone after meeting with the couple and discussing life important matters and feeling comfortable that the marriage has potential. He said he uses that wedding ceremony as a way of sharing the love of the Lord (not a sermon) and always prays over each marriage that, like in our case, that the couple will join together and form a union with the Lord at the center of the marriage. And he said our church is always usable for weddings. They have a wonderful Christian lady that is there to help with any information as to dressing rooms, decorations, food prep, etc. And he said she uses it as a testimony. She wants everybody to leave the church with a feeling of love. She sees it as a seed planted.
So back to the current topic. A pastor interviews a child that wants to be baptized. This child understands the basics as to what it means and is baptized. What a more wonderful testament to a nonbelieving family than a child who has gotten it. Children can lead the way.
Pam, your dream church sounds a lot like ours.. I wish you and DH all the luck in the world.. We started out with 9 members and in two years we have grown to an average of 30 in attendance on Sunday mornings.. We started out meeting at a members house... We are seriously an out reach and a repair of the soul church... So many people have come to us damaged by past church experiences.. It breaks my heart to think of all the people that have turned their backs because of the treatment of supposed Christians..
Sunny, I am sorry you haven't felt connected to a church. I hope one day you find that connection, don't give up...
Ame, I know exactly what you are saying... I was a "pew sitter" at a nice little church that had a pastor with visions of a mega church.. He would speak about the new church every service requesting (damanding) money to fufill this dream, stating that it was Gods will that we create this mega church. He would give set dates to meet a financial goal. If the goal wasn't met he would extend the deadline. It made me ill, listening to his threats of this is how it has to be.. There was a family that was donating to the fund, in spite of the fact their car was on its last leg... I felt out reach to that family should have come first. I went to a Sunday service and the pastor got down right nasty about people not following the will of God and giving to this fund, I got up and left right in the middle of the service... They got the mega church and the church divided, many went to other churches and others quit attending church all together... It was a nasty Christian experience for sure...
We are supposed to give to non Christians or detached Christians unconditional love. We are supposed to give them a taste of God's love through our actions... We call it sparking their lives.. We refer to to having the light of God in us as Christians and that everyone has a lantern in them waiting to be lit.. Some are lit but really dim and we are to stoke that light through our actions and out reach to them.. We are not to turn away any body seeking baptism, marriage or council.. We aren't to do anything with a demand attatched to it.. Baptism and marriage require a meeting with both our senior and youth pastor.. So they can confirm that you are aware of what those commitments mean and they instruct you on Christian responsibilities of the actions... Once those meetings are done and they feel you are going into either situation with a positive reasoning and understanding they agree to provide the service.. If it is a baptism and they don't feel you are spiritually prepared they will suggest further council but they don't just say NO.. They walk you through things and once you are ready then they do it.. And walking you through it doesn't mean coming to church, they provide council at your home... My senior pastor and his wife work on the prayer line on our local Christian tv channel. We have people that have called in with a request of baptism and our pastor has conducted baptism on people that do not attend church and do not plan to attend at this time.. There are so many people in our community that call in searching for God and afraid of attending a church because of past experiences.... We are supposed to give a taste of Christ to them, in hope that those taste in time will leave them feeling full.. Most can't be come at with a full meal because it overwelms them and they turn away.. We are to give testimonial about our walk through our actions.. And those actions contain out reach to non believers.. Which means marriage and baptism with no commitment to our specific church and our specific Doctrine..
Why are so many afraid/resistant to try to find a church? Why have so many people been burned by people that claim to be a Christian? I hope that people can separate The BAD Churches from God.. People in the Church as just people.. They make huge mistakes because the are imperfect. God has made a place for all his children and you just have to find that place..
Bobbie, on the note of being told the child couldn't return to church unless the mom bought new clothes, that is sad. I liked my Methodist church because they believed you come as you are, God doesn't care about your clothing, only what's in your heart. That's my problem with many organized religions, it's a corporation now, rather than focusing on what matters... your heart and soul. So sad...
Crystal, that is just it... Most churches in this day and age are becoming "come as you are churches" Our Methodist church has a big sign out front, you've seen them the ones with the lift up glass.. Anyway, it says in big bold letters "COME AS YOU ARE".
I wear, jeans, shorts, tennis shoes, nice flip flops (yes flip flops) and once I am at church I usually end up bare foot before the service is over... All my kids wear jeans or shorts... Actually all the kids wear jeans or shorts.. I hate shoes and one day I just stated taking off my shoes, the youth pastor made fun of me but not in a round about way of telling me to wear them, we always joke with each other...
And our congregation isn't required to pay dues, let say, many people that come can't afford to put money.. And some can only put a few dollars in a month.. The people that don't pay in aren't treated any different then the ones that do.. We believe that those who have a gift are to use it and some are gifted with money, some can sing, some are artistic (I made all the drapes for the church and table coverings), some clean up, some bus in our kids, some bring food for after the service, we all have a purpose in God's House.. And being poor doesn't take that spot away from you.. We are hardly a corporation..
Here is a link to my churches web site.. It hasn't been updated as far as pictures and such..
Heart of the Cross
You can listen to last Sundays service, see a picture of most of our congregation, see our kids dressed as clowns in the Photo Gallery, Video library there is video from the senior pastor on the tv program.. Oh and this always floors everyone... We are meeting in our local MALL..... Yes in a store front... Talk about informal.. LOL
Crys, all I am trying to say is that many churches have come a long way... That jerk that told that Nicole she needed to buy new clothes before she came back will get his..
I will say that the moderators are pleased to know that we can have a serious discussion about religion, being respectful and thoughtful of each other. That doesn't happen on many boards, and makes me even prouder to be a part of this board.
Awww
Thanks, Ginny.
Ame
That really is awesome, Bobbie. There is a HUGE church in TX that is ALL about money, required 10% of your salary tithing based off tax returns, the CHURCH has a FLEET of Mercedes with vanity tags, insane stuff. I'm sure you have to be a member to do anything with them, and I really can't imagine why anyone would want to. Every time I drove past it, I felt sad, and I'm not even religious.
Back to topic, I guess my peeve is when someone or a group who claims to be Christian excludes others, or judges them in some way. It just seems to go against everything I know about Christianity. And above all, children are innocents, we cannot punish them for their parents' perceived sins.
There was a church like that, where I used to live. The main pastor person drove a fancy Mercedes. It just didn't seem to me a good use for the money!
We tithe but nobody ever told us we had to. It was just our own conviction. Dh made a comment in front of our financial secretary one day about how she knew what everybody gave. She said that honestly she doesn't pay attention to it. And our church has recently started a way to pay tithes electronically. And she said that she'd rather everybody pay that way so she doesn't have her nose in anybody's business. We have drives every few years to raise money for a particular growing project. And the pastor always says that if we make a commitment to give a particular thing, but something happens in a family's finances to change the amount to be given, no one from the church will ever call or send a letter to ask why.
And I don't think anybody in our church is treated differently b/c of how much they give.
There are still many good churches out there that follow Biblical teachings that are about the right things. But it is the ones that don't that give all Christians a bad name.
One comment I read earlier said something about Christians being condemning and judgmental. As a Christian I don't see it as mine to be judgmental of anybody. I may not choose to participate in a girls' night out with a stripper and drinking. But I'm not going to tell someone that their actions are condemning them either. I may not participate in certain lifestyles and may disagree with certain actions, but my sins are no less sin in God's eyes and HE loves me anyway. There are those Christians who think they are the only ones who are good or right. But I don't think any of us do a good enough job to be considered sinless.
My own church is pretty casual about dress. Some people dress up. I would say most people don't. They are a friendly bunch of people and I like them just the way they are.
I really have to brag about my church. One of the programs we are involved in is housing homeless women, usually with children. We share in this program with several other churches, and the families (20-25) spend a month at each church. We put up temporary partitions in our dining room and gymnasium, with beds and dressers in each partitioned area, and we have a couple of shower rooms, and a good sized kitchen. The families are involved with various programs during the day - job training, school, day care for the little ones, and social workers and counselors working with the moms to help them find, apply for, get and keep jobs, working with the various financial aid systems, and help in finding permanent housing once they have the finances worked out. Each church contributes financially, provides the food for supper and breakfast, and volunteers from the church prepare the meals and are in the church all night so that if any of the women want to talk or have any needs, someone is there. (Additional funding comes through various government programs and foundation grants, to pay for the social work aspects of the program.) I just got an e-mail that a 19 year old girl who was kicked out by her family when they learned she was pregant, and came into our program, gave birth last night by C-section. The e-mail is seeking a family to house her and her baby for a couple of weeks so that she has time to recover and bond with her baby in a home setting - and I'll bet that at least half a dozen families volunteer.
Ginny, what a wonderful service your church provides. This brought on tears, especially about the young 19 year old and her baby. Yes, I can imagine there will be many who would like to help her and give her a place to stay.
Bobbie, your church sounds awesome as well! It's good to hear these type of churches are out there.
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