We have a mutt from the pound that we adopted 7 years ago. As of today he will be out of our house. He weighs 65 lbs and at best guess is an Akita/German Shepherd mix. He has been a great dog, but has had a few aggression issues in the past with a meter reader who pepper sprayed him for barking (the start of the problem) and he bit a vet tech who didn't handle him correctly. He has always been very protective of the family. Today he bit my 7 y/o on the wrist. He jumped up at the table and tried to take Noah's breakfast and when Noah went to get his breakfast Hero bit him---fairly understandable scenario---dog wants food, child interferes, dog gets aggressive. BUT that's not acceptable, even if understandable. He broke the skin in about 5 places, but it's not a deep bite and there are no puncture wounds--more like the teeth grazed the skin. Well, DH went to punish the dog by locking him in the bathroom to separate him from the family. When DH went to grab his collar and pull him toward the bathroom he bared his teeth, growled, raised his hackles, and lunged for DH. We looked at each other and said "He's gone."

It's obvious that he can't live with us anymore, but I am typing this with tears pouring down my face. He is a dear family member, but we can't feel safe with him anymore. I'm going to call the vet in a little bit when they open, but I was wondering if there is any hope of him being trained and adopted out or if we simply must put him down. This is so hard. He knows he's in big trouble because he keeps sitting down by us wagging his tail and looking up at us. Such a difficult thing to do...advice please

By Kate on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 08:49 am:

Just wanted to say I was sorry for your situation. Hope Noah is okay and hope everyone will adjust and be at peace with Hero's absence.

By Fraggle on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:03 am:

I don't really have any advice, so I'm sending hugs. We haven't been in the situation before with biting with our dogs (we have one who has been aggressive towards my DH in the past after being punished), but if it was either of my dogs, the biting would be the end of their time with us. I know when we went through a tough time with our more aggressive dog, the vet recommended a trainer to help work through it. We never needed to go that route, we worked with her ourselves and spent some more time with her (she was feeling a bit neglected I think after a move and then the birth of my second daughter).

By Kernkate on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:12 am:

{{{Pam}}} I really don't have much advice. Hope Noah is ok.
JMO but if a dog seems to be getting that aggressive toward any one especially my kids I would have to think of getting rid of him. I know how hard it must be, but its probably best for all of you.

By Kellyj on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:37 am:

A 65lb aggressive dog + kids is never a good combination. Maybe the vet would be able to help you place him in a childless home? Is he neutered? I'm not sure if it would help this late in his life, but decreasing the testosterone levels tends to curb aggression in males. Also, you may want to have a physical exam done. A sudden change in behavior can sometimes indicate physical problems (hormone imbalances, central nervous system problems etc). Training might be able to help, but IMO the risk is not worth it. All it takes is for the dog to revert to his aggression once and a child is seriously maimed.
It's such a hard choice to make.

By Melana on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:45 am:

I agree with the other, you can look online for the area you're in and find a no kill rescue agency that will take him and help get him over his aggression issues. They will also be sure to put him in a home with no children, and since he's shown aggression towards men then they may work on getting her a single person home with a woman. It really all depends on what is available in your area. HTH, and I really don't see much of a reason to put the dog down, He just needs a family more suited to him.

By Kellyj on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:46 am:

One last thing. An Akita or German Shepard rescue group may be able to help you find him a new home.

By Boxzgrl on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:54 am:

I dont know the rules everywhere but *most* shelters here in Ca. will not adopt out an aggressive dog. They put them through their testing to see if their agression can be controlled and if so they try to train them but if not they usually just put them to sleep.

I would get an exam for Hero first to make sure there isn't anything causing the aggression such as pain from arthritis since that is comon in both Akitas and Shepherds. I only gave that as an example to show you physical things that could be wrong.

Whatever decision you make in the end, (((HUGS))) and just know you are trying to do whats best.

By Shellyg on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 12:19 pm:

Don't waste your time calling an animal rescue, I can tell you that they can not take an aggressive dog. What I can do is tell you the name of my trainer, maybe you can her and get some advise. I get calls from people who are in your situation at least once a week. Sounds like your dog is food aggressive and is taking an "alpha" position in your family. He needs to be knocked back down to dog position. E-mail me and I can have you call my trainer if you are interested.
My 130 lb dog was VERY food aggressive when I first adopted him. With lots of work, I can now take food out of his mouth, no problem.

By Cat on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 12:20 pm:

{{{{{Pam and family}}}}} I don't have anything to add, but wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you all.

By Dawnk777 on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 03:03 pm:

On the dog board that I go to, they often suggest a thyroid panel when a dog has a sudden personality change. Might be worth looking into before you get rid of him.

By Melanie on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 03:09 pm:

((((HUGS))))

By Eve on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 03:19 pm:

Oh, Pam. I'm so sorry. ((HUG))

By Pamt on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 06:06 pm:

It's been a long, sad day. The vet agreed that we needed to put him down with his history of aggressiveness getting a little worse each year. I have cried off and on all day and just had a big crying session alone in my bedroom when we got home. DH was the one to take Hero to the vet, so he is very upset as well. We explained everything to the boys, but it doesn't seem to have fully hit them yet. Thank you for your advice, suggestions, and hugs. Sometimes it's very, very hard to do the right thing. Hero has been a faithful friend and wonderful protector for almost 8 years and we miss him dearly already.

By Kate on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 06:15 pm:

I'm sorry, Pam. :o(

By Karen~moderator on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 06:29 pm:

{{{{{{{{Pam}}}}}}}}} I'm sorry.

By Ginny~moderator on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 07:05 pm:

Pam, I asked my son Scott, a vet tech and a dog lover - in fact, a dog doter - to respond to your post.

Hi, Ginny~ asked me to respond to this thread. My name is Scott, and I'm a vet tech in PA with lots of experience with a great variety of dog breeds. I am NOT a veterinarian. Right now I've got a Rotti with Schutzhund training (also a pound puppy), but back to your 'Kita/'Shep problem:

You say your dog Hero is devoted to protect your family, yet he bit your child and hackled up at your DH. That's not looking out for the family, is it? He may be penitent right now, but dogs aren't stupid.

I've handled Akitas before and I've seen many do well as police K9s and Schutzhunds. They're good at what they do. Same for Sheps. Same for Pit Bull Terriers, Staffies, Rottis and on... these dogs need to be trained solidly to keep their temper reined in, and they need to be worked to let their steam off. The fact that Hero bit a VT at the vet's is not encouraging. As for getting maced by the mailman, that probably wasn't necessary if the mailman wasn't in immediate danger, but that's water over the dam at this point. Right now you're describing your dog as a powderkeg, and I can relate. I've seen bad dogs get worse until they simply must be put down for public safety.

For the record, NO pound will keep a dog with a bite on its record; they'll kill it the second you walk out. I'm sure you can understand why.

Someone with no small children (or cats, for that matter) and a lot of experience breaking intractable dogs might take an interest in your pup, but that is indeed a long shot. Talk to your vet about the reality of this situation; don't sugarcoat it or gloss over anything. If your vet doesn't have a good prognosis for turning him around, you'll have a Difficult Decision on your hands.

I am familiar with Dr. Karen Overall's protocol on breaking aggressive dogs, and it's work. It can also involve giving diazepam (Valium) pills to yor dog. Does he pill easily enough? You might have to find out. Fair notice: the protocol doesn't have a very high success rate. It also depends on just how long your dog has been snappy, and what risks you're willing to take with your young kids. You'll also have to know when to throw in the towel.

I don't envy your position. I've also had to put down animals on behavior issues. One thing Dr. Overall said in her textbook is that animal behavior issues are 98% client-driven, but she also comments that some breeds just have certain tendencies and the potential owner should be aware of them.

Ginny comments: Pam, you and your family have my sympathy and prayers. But I think you don't really have a choice, given that your children are most at risk and given Hero's history over the last couple of years. You have done what Scott suggested and consulted your vet - and, sadly, have gotten the advice both Scott and I expected. This is very difficult, I know - I've been there, done that, with cats and dogs. And I will keep you and your family in my thoughts.

By Annie2 on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 08:20 pm:

Pam, I went through something similar a couple years ago. I think you did the right thing, even as hard as it was to do. (((HUGS)))

By Vicki on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 08:36 pm:

I am so sorry that you had to make this choice today. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

By Conni on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 08:53 pm:

You and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers. Pets really do become part of the family. So sorry you had to go through this.

You did the right thing for the dog and for your family...

By Tink on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 09:25 pm:

Just wanted to send more hugs your way, Pam. I haven't had to put a dog down for aggression but health problems and it is one of the hardest decisions for a loving owner to do. As hard as it is, you are doing the right thing.

By Shellyg on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 10:14 pm:

Oh Pam, I am so sorry about your loss of your dog. I really know how they become part of your family.

By Trina~moderator on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 10:19 pm:

(((((Pam and family)))))

By Pamt on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 10:59 pm:

Thanks again all. It's apparently a bad pet week for my family. I emailed my mom to tell her about the dog (didn't call b/c I can't talk about it w/o falling apart). She emailed me back that they are putting their 16 y/o cat to sleep tomorrow. He was diagnosed with diabetes a couple of months ago and has really gone downhill despite treatment. This cat was originally given to me because when we moved (I was a jr in college) my cat ran away. My dad has always hated cats, but for some reason this kitty took up with my dad and wouldn't have a thing to do with me. I didn't take him when I left home b/c he didn't even like me. He would go to the back door every Sat. night and meow until my dad walked out to grill. My dad and this cat were inseparable and he's now a cat person. My mom has always loved cats. Both of my parents are very upset and my mom said that my dad fell against the frig sobbing today---VERY unlike my dad. So please keep us and my parents in your thoughts and prayers as we grieve for the loss of our furry family members. Thanks so much to you all!

By Dawnk777 on Monday, October 4, 2004 - 11:52 pm:

I'm sorry about the cat and the dog. It is hard to lose a furry buddy!

By Cocoabutter on Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 01:02 am:

I have an 11-yr-old kitty and a 3-yr-old "puppy". I grew up with a cat who died when he was 13. I also had several dogs when I was growing up. I know how hard this must be for you all. Just know that time heals, and soon you may feel ready for a new puppy that you can train and love for his/her entire long life to come.

By Sunny on Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 11:55 am:

I am so sorry, Pam. (((hugs)))

By Gammiejoan on Tuesday, October 5, 2004 - 06:47 pm:

I am very sorry, Pam, about your dog and your parents' cat.