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This is not a debate, but I'm looking for information.....

Moms View Message Board: The Kitchen Table (Debating Board): This is not a debate, but I'm looking for information.....
By Dana on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:18 am:

Jehova Witness......what exactly makes them who they are? How do they differ from Christian?

I know so much of their beliefs are similar to Christianity, but there MUST be something specific in their beliefs that devides them.

This question comes from a conversation I had with my DH. He was reading the Tower (I think that is what it is called)and it sounded to be the same as what I believe as a Christian. He asked me why is that religion often made fun by the general public or often thought of as a cult in the Christian community. I had no idea. Does anyone here know the pivital point that J.W. stand on?

Thanks.

By Jujubee on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 08:32 am:

Dana,
I go to a great chrisitan discussion board where they deal with all of the various religions. Here is some information from there, and a link:
According to Jehovah's Witness' theology, God is a single person, not a Trinity, who does not know all things and is not everywhere. He first created Michael the Archangel through whom He created all "other things," including the universe, the earth, Adam and Eve, etc. This creative work took God 42,000 years. At one point, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society taught that God ruled the universe from somewhere in the Pleiades star system. They have since modified this to say that the "Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God's throne as being at a particular spot in the universe...........When it came time for the savior to be born, Michael the Archangel became a human, in the form of Jesus. "
There is alot more to it, here is a good link:
http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm

The link to the carm discussion boards is:
www.carm.org/boards.htm

Hope this helps

By Ginnyk on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 09:04 am:

Wow, I didn't know that. All I knew was The Watchtower and people knocking on my door on some Saturdays. I think the JW observe Saturday as their holy day, and I believe they have some dietary restrictions. By and large, JW is a very strict faith.

But, based on the above only and not any research I have done, I do not believe they can be called Christians, Christians being people who believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, the Messiah who has come. (Michael the Archangel - hmmm?) Unitarians also do not believe in a triune God, but I think they do believe that Jesus is part of God, so would fall loosely into the Christian category, but I don't think JWs can.

By Dana on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:22 pm:

Further question: (again not a debate, just curious)
What exactly makes something a cult? Why is JW considered a cult rather than a religion? Catholisism (sp?) is sometimes now refered to as a cult....why? Something like Jim Jones seems pretty obvious, and other groups that worship a real person seem pretty obvious, but how could some of today's other religions be considered a cult? I would think Christian Scientist would be put in that category...but not sure.

I'm asking here at Momsview because I know the women here have such a wide range of information. I am hoping that some may participate in the religions I question so that I can get their direct feedback.

Besides faith, how do you know who is "right"?

By Angellew on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 12:53 pm:

I think the definition of "cult" is anything unorthodox. But, who is to say what is unorthodox? What is completely normal to one person may not be to another. People who were born and brought up believing in voodoo, santaria, scientology, etc. would never believe they were unorthodox. So, when it comes to religion, who knows?

The best line I have ever heard regarding religion was from the movie, Dogma. When asked what religion had it right, the response was - "No religious group has gotten is right. It's not who's faith is right or wrong... as long as you HAVE FAITH!"

By Jujubee on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 01:53 pm:

Dana, I emailed you the answers to these questions. Out of respect for your request not to debate here, there is no way to answer your questions (for me) without causing a debate.

Furthermore I will leave Angelles response alone... :);)

By Dana on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 02:24 pm:

Thanks, I'll look for it. It hasn't gotten here yet. :)

By Ginnyk on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 02:49 pm:

Dana, I think some of it has to do with size, and some with longevity.

As examples of what I mean, originally Christianity was considered a sect or cultic offshot of Judaism, but rapidly became a separate religion. The Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) were initially a cult (size, age) but are definitely a faith/religion these days. Methodism was started by Wesley as an offshoot of the Anglican Church, reaching out to farm laborers and factory workers who could not afford the pew rent and would have felt out of place in the church attended and supported by their employers. The Hasiddic sect is a clearly recognized distinct sect of Judaism, whose members are very orthodox Jews with rules of dress and behavior that set them apart even from most Jews, but clearly a respected group within Judaism.

I do think one of the dividing lines between a cult and a religion is whether the founder/leader is still alive and controlling everything or if the entity has been able to survive and grow after the founder's death.

For example, the Shakers were definitely a cultic sect of protestant Christianity, and one that was self-defeating since its members believed in total celibacy - I think there are two or three elderly women in either Pennsylvania or New York state who are the last of the Shakers.

I started to say more, about Christian Science and JW, and some other groups, but realized I would be heading for and maybe crossing the fine line of purely (and possibly controversial) opinion rather than definitions based on measurable facts (which may also be debatable, but are, I hope, not controversial).

I appreciate Jujubee having the sensitivity to reply to you by email and to remind us, by doing so, that we need to be very, very careful about the manner in which religious topics are discussed.

By Dana on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

Thanks Ginny. Boy this stuff can get confusing, can't it?

And thank you for keeping this only an information gathering thread as opposed if one belief is right or wrong.

By Bea on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 04:11 pm:

Witnesses in a Nutshell



According to Jehovah's Witness' theology, God is a single person, not a Trinity, who does not know all things and is not everywhere. He first created Michael the Archangel through whom He created all "other things," including the universe, the earth, Adam and Eve, etc. This creative work took God 42,000 years. At one point, The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society taught that God ruled the universe from somewhere in the Pleiades star system. They have since modified this to say that the "Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God's throne as being at a particular spot in the universe."1 Such changes and even contradictions in teaching are frequent in the Watchtower organization and when a doctrine changes, they tell their followers that the light of truth is getting brighter.

After Adam sinned, the paradise which God had created for them, was ruined. So, God instituted a system of redemption which was revealed in the Bible and would ultimately lead to the crucifixion of Jesus the messiah. But, in the meantime, God needed to have a visible, theocratic organization on earth to accurately represent Him. Throughout history, this true organization had a remnant of faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, etc.) but it wasn't until the late 1800's that Charles Taze Russell formerly began what is now known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society which is run out of Brooklyn, New York. This organization claims to be the only true channel of God's truth on earth today and that it alone can properly interpret God's word since it is the angel directed, prophet of God on earth.

When it came time for the savior to be born, Michael the Archangel became a human, in the form of Jesus. Jesus grew and kept all the laws of God and never sinned. Finally, when Jesus died, it was not on a cross, but on a torture stake, where he bore the sins of mankind -- but this did not include Adam's sins. Jesus rose from the dead as a spirit, not physically (his body was dissolved and taken by God) and during his visitations to people on earth, he manifested a temporary physical body for them to see and touch. Thus began the true Christian church of Jehovah's followers.

Throughout history there have been faithful Jehovah's witnesses who have managed to keep The Truth in spite of the "demonic" doctrine of Trinitarianism that has permeated the Christian church in "Christendom." Christendom is filled with pastors who are antichrists, in churches run by Satan, and who support the earthly governments which are all of the devil. In other words, all of Christianity is false and only the Jehovah's Witness "theocratic" organization lead by several men in Brooklyn, New York, is true.

In the late 1800's, a young man of 18 years, by the name of Charles Taze Russell, organized a Bible class in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 1879 he sought to popularize his ideas on doctrine so he co-published The Herald of the Morning magazine with its founder, N. H. Barbour and by 1884 Russell controlled the publication and renamed it The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom, and founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society (now known as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society). Russell served as the teacher and guide for the organization which taught that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is now reigning in heaven. When Jesus finally returns physical to earth, which will happen at the time of the Battle of Armageddon, He will set up his earthly 1000 year kingdom. During this 1000 year period, people will be resurrected and have a second chance to receive eternal salvation by following the principles of Jehovah's Organization on earth known as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. After the millennium, those who reject God and His organization will be annihilated; that is, they will cease to exist. The rest of the Jehovah's Witness who have faithfully followed God's organization on earth will be saved from eternal annihilation and reside forever on Paradise earth. Heaven, however, is a place for a special group of 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses -- the only ones who are "born again" and who alone are allowed to take communion in their annual communion service.

When you study with the Jehovah's Witness, you agree to attend five meetings a week where you are taught from Watchtower literature. You cannot be baptized until you have studied their material for at least six months and have answered numerous questions before a panel of elders. Men are not supposed have long hair or wear beards and women are to dress in modest apparel. They refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner, celebrate birthdays or Christmas, won't take blood transfusions, and they can't join the armed forces. A schedule of door-to-door canvassing is required where you distribute the Watchtower literature, acquire donations, and forward all monies to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.

If you ever leave the Jehovah's Witness organization, you are considered an apostate and are to be shunned.

By Annie2 on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 05:00 pm:

Bea, wow. What great information. :) Very interesting and enlightening.
How come JW do not vote, salute the flag, celebrate holidays, etc?
My former neighbor is a JW. I think her DH was more devout (sp), but she had to place him in her mind and sons' minds that he was the head of the household...no questions asked.

By Ginnyk on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 06:24 pm:

I don't know about voting or holidays, but I know that many people are members of faiths that consider it a religious violation to show certain acts which we consider respect for government or leaders, or respect for national symbols, and I believe the JWs, among others, participate as little as possible in what they deem to be government activities (voting, etc.) because they view God as the head and no government or elected individual is important in that context. Quakers, for example, would not take their hats off for the king because the king was just a man like every other man; nor do they take an oath in any proceeding - you know, hand on the Bible, I swear to tell the whole truth, etc. - but rather, state simply, without the Bible, that they will tell the truth, because all persons are always required to tell the truth and taking an oath is not assurance that a liar will not swear - I think there is also a component that it is unGodly to take God's name as a witness to your intent to tell the truth. As for the flag, I believe JWs and others consider it something of an idol and saluting it to be akin to worship. They are not alone in their desire to be "separate" - in Pennsylvania and a few other states, the Amish are not required to send their children to school beyond, I believe, 8th grade - they do not want their children exposed to secular teaching; they also do not take oaths, do not generally register to vote, and follow many practices similar to the Quakers with respect to secular government. The Amish are not part of the Social Security system and generally do not believe in insurance, believing that God and the community will care for those who need help. There are also some very strict Protestant groups that don't celebrate Christmas, seeing it as just another day in the calendar - that was the practice of the Puritans in England and in New England; I imagine they would view birthdays in general and holidays in general the same way.

One of the many blessings of this nation is that we are tolerant of religious differences. We may not agree with another person's beliefs, may even think they are silly and that the things they do or don't do because of religion are silly, but we not only tolerate such differences, we make accomodations for them where doing so does not harm others or the community. So, a Christian Scientist adult can refuse medical treatment, or a Jehovah's Witness adult can refuse a transfusion, but they are legally not allowed to refuse such medical treatment for their minor children if a doctor says it is necessary. My brother's second wife was a half-hearted Christian Scientist and refused to have their children vaccinated - the school system allowed that as long as she filed a statement of religious belief and refusal of permission for vaccination.

By Dana on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 07:57 pm:

Hmmmm, I'll have to print this out to read it more carefully.

Thanks for replying

By Pamt on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 08:01 pm:

Typically a cult is a group that deviates from the mainstream religious belief. There can be Christian cults, Muslim cults, etc. A cult has 3 things:
1) A highly charismatic leader with a great deal of control who starts the organization and all religious practice is centered around him/her.
2) Extra-canonical scriptures
3) Central beliefs that deviate from the commonly understood beliefs of that religion.


The above came straight from my dh's mouth. He has a 3 year seminary degree (Master of Divinity) from an internationally respected Christian seminary and has done extensive study regarding cults. A resource he suggests is "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. I'll email you sometime this weekend as well Dana, as I'd like to discuss this further but don't want to offend some moms whom I know think differently.

By Ginnyk on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 08:40 pm:

Pamt, I think the definition you posted is accurate and concise. What does your husband's studies say about cults that survive the death of the highly charismatic leader (i.e., Mormons)?

By Jujubee on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 08:42 pm:

Dana,
I am just now sending the email :) Sorry thought I sent it before, but it didn't go through obviously.

Jules

By Dana on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 09:19 pm:

I got the email. Thanks. And Pam, I would love to discuss this further...and anyone else who is interested. Perhaps we can find a time to all get together. I have a chat room that we can use.

By Ginnyk on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 11:51 pm:

Dana, I'd be interested if you set up a chat. Let me know at klipvm@rcn.com. As it happens, I am on "vacation" next week (planning to do my annual spring cleaning to catch up on all the stuff I have ignored during my usual SAD - winter seasonal depression).

By Palmbchprincess on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 03:07 pm:

I am very interested in this chat. I must say (and hope I'm allowed, since this is on the debating board) that I am scared of Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons. I don't mean to offend anyone by it, I just worry about anyone who comes to my door trying to push their beliefs on me. I also think that the leaders and teachings of those groups, and other groups that are pushy and judgemental, are a bit outlandish. This is just my opinion on the religion, not on the members themselves. I'm sure not all of the members of the religions are as overzealous as the founders and devout followers. Like I said, I'm just weary of anyone pushing something on me, especially at my own doorstep. I agree with Ginny... to each his own, but they don't seem to feel like that.

By Dana on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 09:11 pm:

I'll be trying to do some cleaning and catching up too next week. So perhaps the week after Easter.

By Kaye on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 12:18 am:

Hey I want in on the chat too :) My husband worked with a man who was JW. He had some discussions with things they do different. The celebration thing is basically a respect thing. You aren't to celebrate something that you have no control over. You are allowed to celebrate your anniversary. I believe the recognized Easter, but not Christmas. On a side note I thought it was interesting that he accepted the "christmas bonus", he said it wasn't a gift, it was for a year of hard work..lol. Also they believed that God is the ultimate healer and that you are disrepecting your body to take blood or organs. I think it has to do with the way you leave your body when you die. Interesting reading here though.

By Feona on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 11:12 pm:

Regarding cults:

I think that one of the big differences between cults and other religions is the effect it has on
the followers:

Cults tend to use tools like fear, guilt and controlling behavior over their members to keep them in the cult. Asking "members" to spy on each other is very common in these sorts of groups. Another common thing is asking members to break off communication with their "non-believing" families and friends. Usually this is to prevent the Family and/or friends from breaking the influence of the cult on the person.
These sorts of practices should be a red flag that something is wrong with the group.

On the other hand, a "non-cultish" religion should be encouraging, loving and uplifting to its members. People are a part of it because they want to be and it shows in their ways in relating to each other and to others outside the group.

By Ginnyk on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 11:22 pm:

I think another sign of a cult is finances - does the religious oranization encourage or expect you to turn over all or the bulk of your assets, or to tithe or contribute as you see fit. Everything I've read about cults says that they want their members to turn over all of their assets, paychecks, whatever.

By Feona on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 09:27 am:

One of the reasons the mormons and jw come to the door is because good works are very important and only a few people get into heaven. So they have to work really hard to earn a place in heaven!

By Marymary on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 04:09 pm:

What a very interesting discussion.

I have only one question to ask, why do certain religions feel it necessary to bring children with them when they go door to door, voicing their beliefs??? I don't have any respect for people that use children in any way whether it be for religion or something else....I just watched 20/20 the other night about the children from Waco and now 11 years later they were interviewed...what a sad story....truly another mixed up bunch (IMO)...and who suffered...children...just shaking my head...

By Tercoclu on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 02:07 pm:

This has been a very interesting post..I read everything and much of it I didn't know..I also agree that cults are usually run by someone who is charamistic(sp?),prey on the weak and confused and in the end abuse the love their followers have for them.I find this very scary..

Cults remind me of Jim Jones incident and since then I've always been leery of anyone who is so devout they have no other conversations but to try and convert you.When someone comes to my house I simply say that I have my own beliefs,they are mine and I prefer not to discuss them.They never seem to give up,everything you say or appear to be doing at the time,they have an answer or question for you and I find myself getting very nervous and I've come close to shutting doors in their faces.

This may sound terrible but one summer,at my home,we were holding a long awaited family reunion,for some it was almost 15 years,and we using the pool.The doorbell rang and I went to answer in my bikin,I swear nothing fazes these people,and when I politely tried to tell them(notice they travel in pairs),that I had a family reunion they just kept on going,finally dropping a bombshell on me which was to say that did we know with the end in sight,wordly pleasures were blah blah....I apologize now if any of this offends anyone but I saw red and yelled out the window for my sisters to come in ,someone wanted to speak to them.Of course everyone was in swim wear,including my sister in law who has been a nun for over 30 years and my youngest sibling invited them to sit on the couch and get comfortable.Slowly piece by piece they had them remove their coats,ties,(come on it was over 90 outside,a beautiful Sunday afternoon)and it was only when they started unbuttoning their shirts did these guys finally give up the battle and left...

We didn't mean to offend anyone but this reunion was a long time in the making and some had travelled over a 1000 miles for it so it seems to me they should have taken the hint and left....

Hope you'll forgive me if I butted in,just wanted to share.........

By Dana on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 11:30 am:

Hi everyone! Glad to have gotten a such a wide response on my curiosity.

I still have a few more busy days ahead of me, but would Thursday night (around 9PM EST) be a good time for our chat?

Feona, I see you in this thread. Would it be okay for me to post my link to my chat room? The chat can accomidate several guest in real time.

The only thing I request is that all chat guest refrain from blasting any religion. Stating ways a certain group has made YOU FEEL is fine, but no judgement on their own choices. Stating concepts of how different religions are viewed/percieved is fine, but please keep personal comments in kind words.

With Feonas approval, I will post the link to my chat room.


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