Reading the Pampered Chef threads made me wonder about thoughts on this.

For me, PRO CHOICE does not mean PRO ABORTION.

I am against abortion, but I am for choice.

God, himself, gave humans the choice of free will. It is our choice to do right or wrong.

I feel it is our responsibility to allow - educate - support women to make the CHOICE to keep their child. It is our responsibilty to care for this woman and her child should she not be able to herself.

It is my place to make available my thoughts and feelings on her keeping her child. It is my duty to do what is necessary for this choice to be made.

It is NOT my duty to make the choice for her.

Regardless of the circumstances, I would never be able to abort my child. However, these are my choices. I have no place in making this choice for someone else. That is between that woman and God (and yes the unborn child in the middle of it all without a single say on the matter).

It is our right from God to make our own choices.

I will repeat, I do not think that abortion is good choice. It is TOTALLY against what I know. But I can only choose for myself...and no one else.

By Eve on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 02:53 pm:

Really well put, Dana. I don't think it's my place to tell anyone what to do with their body. We all have to live with our choices. I would just never like to see women have to turn to unsafe methods to abort their pregnancies. I think keeping women safe is important. I like to think if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Even further though, do something about it. Teach your children your beliefs and the importance of safe sex; for their health and also because of unwanted pregnancy.

I also would never tell anyone what to think. So, I do understand Pro-life thinking and I also undersand Pro-choice. I don't think anyone is Pro-abortion.

By Kaye on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 04:06 pm:

I am pro life. In my college days I was pro choice. Then when I got pregnant I really got that this fetus was a baby, it had a heartbeat and little hands, etc. No it could not live outside of me, but there was no doubt in my mind in was a life, no matter what the circumstances, that child was a life. So as far as choice, I have a very good friend who was dating a guy who was abusive, she got out of the relationship, but he still stalks her. Nothing really to call the cops about, but we all know that one day he could flip out. He is a big loser and a hazard to society. I personally really really worry that he will end up hurting her. So it is our right from God to make our own choices, if it weren't punishable by law, I would choose to kill him period. He has no purpose in this world, he is inconvient, he is the product of a bad choice, etc. What makes this different? The fact that he can live without assittance (theoretically, we have yet to see that). I guess I just have had too many people I know have abortions to really get it.

By Semperspencer on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 07:22 pm:

I agree with Kaye.

By Pamt on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 11:33 pm:

Pro-Life all the way. I do believe in choice, but I believe the CHOICE is whether or not to become sexually active. Once you willingly engage in sex, one of the possibilities that you must entertain is pregnancy, wanted or not, planned or unplanned. No birth control method has a 100% success rate. Every time I get behind the wheel of my car I assume a certain amount of risk. I can buy the safest car on the market, always drive the speed limit, wear my seatbelt and have my children properly restrained, etc., but that doesn't guarantee that I won't be in an accident, even involving injury or death. We all know that when we drive a car that despite our best intentions there is possible danger. Same with sex. First of all, I believe that sex should take place only within the covenant relationship of marriage. If that were the case, this discussion would be almost moot. However, since I know that is not always the case, regardless, sexually active people (when they make the "choice" to have sex) need to be aware that despite condoms, withdrawal, spermicide, bc pill, and/or all of the above that sometimes pregnancy can result. If you play with fire, sometimes you get burned (or blessed ). Like Eve, I don't want to see women choose unsafe abortions, but I don't won't to see them choose any abortion. I totally believe that a woman can do whatever she wants with her own body, but when that involves another life, which incidentally I do believe that life begins at conception, then it is no longer her choice. The woman's choice was BEFORE the conception.

Of course the issue of rape or risk to the mother's life always comes up in these discussions and I still am pro-life. In the case of rape, the baby did not ask to be conceived, but still is a human worthy of a chance at life. I can totally understand that the child would be a constant reminder of the rape for the mother...in that case, adoption would be a wonderful alternative. They are many infertile couple who would welcome the child. I have also met 2 people in my lifetime who were conceived by rape and they have made significant contributions to their communities and society as a whole. In the case of mother's health vs. baby's health it is ultimately a "pro-life" decision in that whose life would be more medically feasible to save with the best prognosis. I have never seen any statistics on what percentage of abortions are related to rape, health issues, etc., but I would wager that it would probably not be statistically significant.

I have supported pro-life organizations financially and through volunteer efforts like hosting a shower for a criis pregnancy center for moms who chose to keep their babies to have clothes, diapers, baby supplies, couseling, and parenting classes. In addition to teaching my children what we believe and why we believe it, I think it is important to get involved. I love the quote from Dante that is at the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality." While I certainly don't believe that is biblically true, I think it really drives home the point of getting involved and not just sitting back.

By Ginnyk on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 01:06 am:

So, Pamt, to set forth the worst possible case, you have a 12 year old girl raped by her father, who is now pregnant. And she should go through the entire pregnancy as an incubator for a couple which might (or might not) adopt the result of that pregnancy?

The problem I have with your argument (though I do understand the beliefs underlying it) is that it treats the woman as an incubator rather than a person.

I do not like abortion, I do not promote it. I think that abortion is always the result of a failure - a failure to teach young women (and men) adequately about sex and consequences, a failure of birth control, a failure of social programs to adequately protect young women from abusers and manipulators, a failure of a society which promotes sex and "sexy" as desirable to the point where it is difficult to find clothes for 9 year old girls that are not "sexy", a failure of society in that we don't provide adequate support systems so that if a girl becomes pregnant and wants to opt for adopton she doesn't find her whole life falling apart because of her one mistake, a failure to provide adequate support systems so that being a single female parent does not almost always mean poverty for the woman and her child - I could go on almost endlessly. In a perfect world, abortion would not be necessary to any woman and all children would be wanted and cherished by someone.

Nonetheless, I will always support the woman's right to make the decisions about her body, and I believe those decisions are only hers to make because her existing life is more important than the potential life.

As for who is human, that is a good question. For me, it is not who is human, it is the balance of existing life or potential life, and until the child is born (and yes, I say and think child) it is potential life.

We could have this discussion endlessly (and it is, I suspect, endless) and without changing many minds.

By Annie2 on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 01:12 am:

I am pro-choice.
If my 12 year old daughter was raped, was impregnated during this RAPE; it's HER choice if she should have to carry this embryo to full time delivery. Then have to care for this HUMAN BEING for the next 70 years or until she dies.

By Angellew on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 10:10 am:

I was going to add something here, but, between Ginny and Annie, I really can't say much more!!! You both said it fully!!!

So, until there are no more children in foster care, homeless children (and families), and poverty around the world, PRO-CHOICE all the way!

By Kate on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 04:53 pm:

Very well said, Pam T! I agree wholeheartedly.

By Juli4 on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 05:20 pm:

I think that we are looking at the wrong questions in this debate. we are talking about illegitimacy, rape, unwanted children and so forth and obviously abortion does not solve those crimes. about 90% of abortions do not happen to 12 year olds who are raped. Actually if we were to pass a law that abortions were only for women who were raped or whose life was medically at stake our abortion rates would go way down. But those examples are not good arguments for abortion. Stories touch us but they do not give a good explanation. The question is whether or not the baby is human or not. If it is no justification is good enough and if it isn't then no justification is needed. And medically we can prove that is is seperate from the mothers body and it is a different person. It has a different heart, central nervous system, gender, and so forth so to say a woman can do whatever she wants with her body is fine but they are two seperate beings with seperate brains and blood types. ABortion will not solve rape or other crimes. Never has and never will. It has been legal since the 70's and statistics have not gone down due to abortion or really at all. So if someone else can give a logical explanation for abrtion I would be interested. Telling stories of 12 year old girls raped and impregnated that comprise of what maybe 10 % of abortions to be liberal wtih numbers is not exactly justification for taking another life no matter how inconvient it is . Murder for convience is always wrong legal or not.

Julie

By Shelly on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:05 am:

Actually Juli the % of abortions as a result of rape and incest are even lower than 10%. Studies have shown that it is difficult to conceive under stressful conditions so pregnancy as a result of these horrific acts are uncommon. My question is for all of the people who don't feel we should make choices for anyone but ourselves. Do you not agree with laws against murder? do you not agree with laws against child abuse? We have mandated through the law, choices for people since the beginning of society. It is interesting to me that the push for legalized abortion occurred in the 60's when society was becoming much more sexually liberated which I assume resulted in many more unwanted pregnancies. All of the bad that is mentioned above, (ie. unwanted children, foster care) have grown exponentially since society became so promiscuous. The bottom line I believe is the life question. I believe a fetus is life and therefore deserving of protection by law. I do believe that women have a choice and as stated above that choice involves being sexually active. Once you make that choice, if you become pregnant, sorry but it's not all about you anymore. Congressman Henry Hyde spoke at the 25th right to life celebration in cincinnati in 1995 and a part of his speech always resonates true with me.
He stated " When the time comes as it surely will, when we face that awesome moment, the final judgment, I've often thought, as Fulton Sheen wrote, that it is a terrible moment of loneliness. You have no advocates, you are there alone standing before God - and a terror will rip your soul like nothing you can imagine. But I really think that those in the pro-life movement will not be alone. I think there'll be a chorus of voices that have never been heard in this world but are heard beautifully and clearly in the next world - and they will plead for everyone who has been in this movement. They will say to God, "Spare him because he loved us," - and God will look at you and say not, "Did you succeed?" but "Did you try?"
I think that sums up the way I feel about my involvement in the pro-life movement.

By Juli4 on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 01:06 pm:

I agree shelly. What a horrible feeling it will be to know that instead of supporting what is right you went with the corwd but where will they be when you alone answer.

By Jujubee on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 01:35 pm:

Well put Kaye. I totally agree.

By Ginnyk on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 02:25 pm:

It is not sufficient to say that the baby's heart, digestive system, nervous system, etc. are separate from the mother's and therefore the baby is a separate person and human. Of course it is human - not reptile nor feline nor whatever.
However, if the baby were truly separate, it would be able to live without the mother. It cannot, and is therefore not separate and, in my mind, not a real person (which, to my mind, is different from "human") until it can live separately from the mother. Otherwise, in my opinion, we are treating pregnant women as incubators, not human beings, and as having fewer rights than the potential life.

I will say it again - I am not "in favor" of abortion - I see every abortion as a failure of some kind. However, until our systems change so that a woman who unintentionally becomes pregnant does not have her life totally disrupted and is not condemned to poverty for herself and the child - I believe the woman should have the choice.

And don't tell me - if she doesn't want to get pregnant all she has to do is not have sex. You know that that is not a solution. Yes, it is factually correct, but it is not a solution.

By Jtw on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 03:10 pm:

I disagree with you Ginny. While it is true that a fetus cannot survive on it's own, that does not make it "not a real person". Can a one day old baby survive without being dependent on it's mother or someone else to feed it and take care of it? I have had two children and I know that if I did not get up at 3:00 in the morning they kept screaming until someone did. A child cannot go into the kitchen and make a bottle on it's own. Does this give us the right to kill a baby just because it is inconvienient to get up at 3:00 am and get a bottle? Of course not! You would go to jail. I agree with Juli and Shelly. I think the real issue is whether a fetus is a baby or not. I know that it is. Sometimes things happen at bad times, but I don't believe that inconvienience gives you the right to take a life. I know a lot of people may disagree with me, but those are my beliefs.

By Annie2 on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 03:53 pm:

When a child is born, there can be other caretakers. When a fetus is inside the mother, only she can provide for that fetus.
You're right, Jeannie, regarding the question: whether an unborn fetus is a baby or not. Within the first trimester,at least, I believe, it is not.

By Juli4 on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 01:45 pm:

Ok so at 12 weeks it is not a baby and then at 13 weeks, seven days later it is a baby. Have you ever heard of the garcia baby? I will tell you. she was born at 19 weeks. nothing was done to save her. she layed on a counter gasping and her chest rising and falling until she died. Why did she die? Because she was only seven days away from being a "person". How sad that the child was let to suffer and die becuase someone decided to take it upon themselves at some point to decide it was not worthy of medical care. she was not worth it.

WHy is the miracle of pregnacy now being looked at as women being forced to being an incubator. The baby is not being given more rights than the mother. The baby is being given the same rights the mother was given when she was relying on her mother inside the womb. And how many women are in poverty in the united states because of children. I would say that not very many. Maybe for other reasons, but not because she was forced to have children. And since when do we support murder for convience. If the baby was one day old and the mother didn't care for the baby ( the baby depends on the mother at one day ) then the mother would be tried for murder. But the day before it is her right to kill it. You cannot argue that abortion ends a life. For whatever reason it ends a life. And since when did we grant personhood to people. I am assuming that if you agree that the women can kill her baby in the womb then she can after it is born. And that the elderly is not a person. or that handicapped people are not persons. Where do you draw the line. Who do you give personhood to?

Lets kill all who are an inconvience to us. Like our elderly parents. Actually some days my toddler is an inconvience to me and she depnds on me therefore i can label her not a person right? Legalizing murder is just opening the floodgates for more legalized murder. You think it will sotp at "fetus'"? No it will not. Ten years from now it will be something else. and people will have some logical argument to justify it, but it will be murder and wrong no matter what.

By Annie2 on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:52 pm:

Everyone has their opinion on this matter. We must agree that we will agree to disagree...which is why I am pro-choice.
Pro-choice = my choice. Not yours. Period.
Again, I have not had an abortion. I will not have one in the future.
Again, my choice: not yours!

By Jtsmom on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

My feeling is that a baby is a baby (a real live human being) the minute it is conceived. They are a gift from God. I think that the legal system along with the world is so afraid of stepping on the "rights" of people, that they forget about Morals. People will always find loop holes and law to defend everything. What will come next?

By Dawnk777 on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 10:36 pm:

Jtsmom, that is how I feel. To me, my babies were people the minute I knew I was pregnant. They were just people I couldn't see for a while.

By Bea on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:14 pm:

We are all Pro Choice. We are all Pro Life. We all believe in life, and we all make different choices. I can't convince you to appropriate the way I feel on this issue. You will never change the way I feel about this. This is one area where debate simply alienates. There are too many issues about motherhood we stand together on, or are still learning and forming ideas. Let this great divider sleep.

By Palmbchprincess on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:11 am:

Um, what Bea said!!!!

By Feona on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:04 am:

http://www.birthchoice.net/abortion_stats.htm

About 27% of all pregnancies result in Abortion! Wow!